Panel Recap丨Immigration, Colonialism, and Naming Behind Overseas Chinese Cuisine

Panel Recap丨Immigration, Colonialism, and Naming Behind Overseas Chinese Cuisine

Background Information 🥡

Lin: Let's get started. First of all, welcome to our space, Professor Cao and Qiu Shi. Let’s start by having both of you introduce yourselves.

Li: I'll go first. Hello, everyone! I'm Li Qiushi. I currently host a podcast called Accidental Error FM, where we pick interesting aspects of pop culture, movies, or literary works as starting points for in-depth conversations. I'm very excited to be here today, thanks to Haodong’s invitation, to chat with Professor Cao about Chinese cuisine overseas.

Cao: Hello, everyone. I’m joining you from Guangzhou. I regret not being able to attend in person, especially since I’m the kind of teacher who even resists students requesting online classes. The past three years of such experiences have left me disliking it. However, I’m currently preoccupied with my book manuscript and want to focus as much time as possible on it. That’s why I couldn’t make it to Beijing and can only meet with everyone virtually. My apologies, but it’s always good to have a chance to discuss ideas.

Lin: Let me introduce the context of this talk. I’m Lin Haodong, the curator of this exhibition and the person in charge of Guli Space. The idea for this talk stems from the works featured in the current exhibition. If you’ve just taken a tour, you’ll notice that the works center on very everyday themes, such as the body and perspectives. One starting point for the talk is related to the works of artist Chen Yuxing. If you look closely at her pieces, they focus on pagodas, specifically pagodas in the UK built by the British.

During the Ming dynasty, there was a famous pagoda in Nanjing called the Porcelain Tower of Nanjing (Da Bao’en Temple Pagoda). It was essentially the “Instagram hotspot” of the 17th and 18th centuries. Almost every foreign visitor to China would visit it, document it, and make records. Unfortunately, the pagoda was destroyed during the Taiping Rebellion, and now we only have these archives. Chen Yuxing’s approach to these works is to digitally “erase” the pagoda, encouraging viewers to reflect on what we call Orientalism.

Her works, in my view, are reflections grounded in daily perspectives. And how does this relate to food? First, food is a very everyday subject. Everyone eats several meals a day. Another fascinating connection is that if you open your smartphone—be it a Huawei, Apple, or Samsung—you’ll find an emoji of a takeout box with a pagoda on it. This serves as both a cultural image and a symbol associated with Chinese food takeout. This takeout box then brings us back to food itself, forming the starting point for today’s talk.

Li: The takeout box was initially designed as a clam box, if I remember correctly. Later, in American TV series and films, you’d often see Chinese takeout served in that box. It’s very simple, foldable, and can hold a lot of food. When Haodong first approached me about this event and mentioned the theme of overseas Chinese food, the first idea that came to my mind was the somewhat abstract concept of “non-traditional” or “non-authentic.” So, I’d like to invite everyone, or Teacher Cao, or even Haodong, to share your impressions of food practices that are not so traditional or authentic.

For instance, Teacher Cao once mentioned in a previous talk that he grew up eating spicy food in Guangdong, which was somewhat unusual for his family compared to others in the area. It seems that there’s a general consensus that the further south you go, especially in Guangdong, people’s tolerance for spicy food decreases. I’d like to start with that. Haodong, do you have any non-traditional eating habits?

Lin: I do. I’m from Fuzhou in Fujian, and I’ve noticed that only people from the Fuzhou area dip dumplings in ketchup.

Li: That’s blasphemy.

Lin: Yes, it seems to be unique to Fuzhou. People from other parts of Fujian don’t do this. It’s definitely not very traditional!

Li: Definitely not.

Cao: We could also ask the audience here. I’m sure many people have some eating habits that aren’t exactly “Chinese.”

Li: Let me first ask Professor Cao—when did ketchup become part of Chinese culinary culture? Was it during modern times?

Cao: Yes, it likely came with the rise of the food industry. It’s similar to how soy sauce-based Western cuisine emerged in Guangdong, which also began after the 19th century.

Li: Does anyone here have any examples?

Cao: Are there any non-Chinese eating habits in your family?

Li: Yes, and about tomatoes, you’ve mentioned in your talks and research on the history of spicy food that the term fanqie (literally “foreign eggplant”) reflects its foreign origin, much like terms for black pepper (hujiao), and onions (yangcong). These naming conventions indicate how they came to China as foreign imports.

Cao: Many things in Chinese cuisine are foreign imports. If you want something truly local, you’d have to go outside and forage for wild plants!

 

From Dumplings 🥟 to Flavor Standards

Li: Speaking of dumplings, I actually thought of something. A couple of days ago, I was flipping through a book at Lin Haodong’s place. It was by Ali Wong, a Vietnamese-American comedian. In her new book, there’s a chapter called “How to Tell If an Asian Restaurant Overseas Is Authentic.” She includes a table listing Good Signs and Bad Signs for Chinese, Japanese, and Vietnamese restaurants.

Under Good Signs for Chinese restaurants, she mentions things like having a huge fish tank at the entrance filled with live fish—that’s a good sign of authenticity. Another is if the restaurant is loud and noisy, it’s probably authentic. She even mentions the restroom; if there’s a giant bar of soap, that might also indicate authenticity.

Under Bad Signs, she specifically talks about dumplings. She writes that if you order dumplings and they’re brought out on a cart, it’s definitely not authentic. And if they serve the dumplings with chili oil, vinegar, and also olive oil, it’s a clear sign of inauthenticity. So, does that mean dumplings are somehow a litmus test for overseas Chinese restaurant standards?

Cao: Definitely not. Even within China, dumplings are not universal. Half of the people in China don’t eat dumplings much, and then you have people who dip dumplings in ketchup. Can you say that’s not Chinese? They’re in China, and it’s a method of eating we invented ourselves. Chinese people have created countless ways of eating, and each region is different. For example, in Guangdong, we almost never eat dumplings.

Even though Yuanji Yun Dumplings is a Guangdong-based company, we don’t eat dumplings much, but we’ve built a nationwide business selling them. That’s a commercial logic. Honestly, the regional differences in China are so vast that it’s hard to define what Chinese cuisine even is.

One vivid example I remember is when I was studying in Ireland. I had a classmate from Henan who introduced me to his family’s watermelon sauce. He described how they used it as a filling for pancakes and even shared a small portion with me. He said it wouldn’t last long because it was so precious, and I tried some—it was just okay to me. Later, he raved about a Chinese buffet in Dublin, the kind where you pay seven euros to eat as much as you want. He said it was fantastic, but when I tried it, I thought, “What is this?”

That’s when I realized we were on completely different wavelengths. My northern classmates thought it was delicious, but I couldn’t stand it. To me, it was inedible. Even with classmates from Shanghai, whom I find I share more culinary preferences with compared to northerners, there were still significant differences.

When we’re overseas, assessing whether something tastes good often depends on how closely it matches the flavors we’re used to back home. I’m a decent cook, so when I make food, a lot of people come over to eat. Some say it’s their first time trying a certain dish. But because of regional differences, there’s no single “Chinese cuisine.” No one in China says, “Let’s go out for Chinese food tonight.” That’s absurd—you need to be more specific. Are we eating dumplings, pancakes, or hot pot? You have to clarify. What even is “Chinese food”?

Li: Right, about Chinese buffets—you mentioned them earlier, and I don’t have a great impression of them either. When I was in the UK, some Chinese buffets even labeled themselves as offering “Asian cuisine,” which included sushi and other so-called Asian dishes.

Cao: That’s an Orientalist imagination.

Lin: Many of those restaurants are still run by Chinese people, but they adopt this Orientalist image and make changes accordingly.

Cao: That’s to cater to foreign customers. Actually, most of those Chinese buffet owners are Fujianese—just being honest. Most of the buffet owners I know are from Fujian. And even their interpretation of Fujian cuisine isn’t authentic.

   

  

The Colonial History Behind "Tianjin Rice" 🍚

  

Li: Let’s move from the introduction into the main discussion. Today’s theme is “Fake Chinese Food.” According to Wikipedia, the more accurate term for it would be “Overseas Chinese Cuisine.”

When we talk about fake Chinese food or overseas Chinese food, Haodong already gave us an example, like the takeout boxes seen in American TV shows, often containing stir-fried noodles. I’ve also had these so-called stir-fried noodles in the UK. Apart from noodles, what else can we think of? For example, when Haodong and I were chatting about this topic, he brought up Tianjin Rice, which is a pretty standard and iconic dish people think of. I also thought of dishes like General Tso’s Chicken and Chop Suey—the latter being quite representative, especially the famous Li Hongzhang Chop Suey.

 

Cao: And Utsunomiya Gyoza.

 

Li: Yes, Utsunomiya Gyoza. We could talk about these briefly. For instance, when it comes to Tianjin Rice, Haodong, does your impression of it align with the information you’ve found?

 

Lin: Tianjin Rice. Honestly, when I think of Tianjin Rice, I immediately think of the anime character Tianjin Fan (Tien Shinhan in English). I’ve never actually eaten Tianjin Rice, but the name itself sounds a bit inauthentic to me. Maybe that’s just my stereotype.

 

Li: I kind of get it. I looked into naming conventions for dishes, and sometimes they’re based on places or people, like Wellington Fish or Caesar Salad. Some of these names are actually tied to authentic, local dishes. But with Tianjin Rice, I’m not sure what its specific connection to Tianjin is. Perhaps we could ask Teacher Cao about this later.

What I did find is that in Tianjin cuisine, there’s a dish called Guo Ta Liji (pan-fried pork tenderloin), which resembles the preparation method of Tianjin Rice as we know it today—sort of like crab omelet rice but made with different ingredients. There’s also a theory that when Japanese chefs first made Tianjin Rice, they used mitten crabs from Tianjin, which is how the dish got its name. The stories seem to vary. Teacher Cao, do you have the definitive answer?

 

Cao: I wouldn’t say mine is the definitive answer, but here’s what I’ve heard. When I was in Japan, a Chinese chef who had been there for years told me about the origins of Tianjin Rice. According to a Yokohama restaurant, the dish was created by a Japanese chef working at a Japanese Army officers’ club in Tianjin. He invented an omelet rice dish there, and that became known as Tianjin Rice.

 

Lin: So, the chef was Japanese?

 

Cao: Yes, the chef was Japanese, and he made it for Japanese people. During the Japanese military presence in China, they typically hired Japanese chefs because they were wary of being poisoned.

When we discuss topics like comfort women, it’s worth noting that relatively few local Chinese people worked as comfort women or chefs for the Japanese military. The Japanese didn’t trust the Chinese and felt that Koreans might be safer. They viewed Chinese locals as too much of a risk. So, this particular dish was created by a Japanese chef in Tianjin for Japanese officers, and it became Tianjin Rice.

 

Li: Got it. The history I came across was somewhat similar. It mentioned that after World War II, some Japanese prisoners of war were sent back to Japan in batches due to limited shipping capacity. During their extended stay in Tianjin, some of them improvised dishes using seafood scraps, creating Tianjin Rice.

Aside from these stereotypical examples of overseas Chinese cuisine, there are also dishes like Beef and Broccoli, which is another popular “Chinese dish” overseas. Before this talk, I was chatting with Teacher Cao and mentioned that broccoli’s history in China is quite short. It’s clearly a dish developed outside of China.

 

Cao: But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not authentic. It’s just as authentic in its own way. For example, Tianjin Rice is an authentic Japanese dish. It was made for Japanese people, even though it happened to be created in Tianjin.

 

 

 

Immigration Story Behind Fortune Cookies 🥠 — From Japanese Confection to Chinese Dessert

 

Li: That’s quite interesting. When I walked into this venue earlier, I brought a small handmade fortune cookie that Haodong and I made. We looked up some proverbs and good-luck sayings, folded them into the shape of fortune cookies, and made these for everyone. Fortune cookies are often regarded as a quintessential Chinese dessert—you’ll find them in almost every Chinese restaurant overseas, usually served after a meal. They’re made from egg and starch, and when you break them open, you’ll often find sayings, sometimes attributed to Confucius.

 

Cao: I happen to have a lot of these at home.

 

Li: Let’s talk about them for a bit. Did everyone get one? Interestingly, fortune cookies were actually invented by the Japanese and are considered a classic Japanese confection. But why did they later become representative of Chinese cuisine? Maybe Teacher Cao can tell us more about the history of fortune cookies.

 

Li: Exactly.

 

Cao: You can break one open and show everyone. Inside, there’s a little strip of paper, and when you crack the cookie, the paper comes out.

 

Li: Right, and they often contain sayings—sometimes even quotes from Benjamin Franklin.

 

Cao: Yes, there’s a strip of paper, and the cookie shell is edible, though I personally don’t find it very tasty. I usually just take the paper out. Sometimes there’s a string of numbers on it as well.
 

Li: Are those lottery numbers?

 

Cao: Yes, for lotteries like Lucky or Powerball.

 

Li: I noticed that in your papers, you mentioned fortune cookies as a Japanese confection. How did they eventually become a representative post-meal dessert in Chinese restaurants? The process of how they spread is quite fascinating. What I found in my research is that there were two groups—one from San Francisco and the other from Los Angeles—both claiming that they invented fortune cookies.

 

The Los Angeles group said that a Hong Kong-owned Chinese restaurant chain started the trend. Their CEO was very kind to the poor and often distributed fortune cookies with good-luck sayings near their building. Over time, it became a tradition.

 

The San Francisco group claimed that one of their employees was Japanese and liked making confections to share with colleagues. This was a traditional Japanese way of expressing friendliness and hospitality. The two groups ended up in court, and the turning point came when they found a cookie mold at the Japanese employee’s home, which served as key evidence. Ultimately, it was determined that a Japanese person had invented the fortune cookie. I’m still curious how it ended up becoming a staple in Chinese restaurants.

 

Cao: The history behind this is quite clear. There’s a book called Fortune Cookie Chronicles by Jennifer Lee. Jennifer Lee is originally from Kinmen, which is part of Fujian. Kinmen is an inseparable part of Fujian. She grew up in the U.S., worked as a journalist for The New York Times, and wrote this comprehensive book, which you can look up.

 

According to her book, fortune cookies were first made by the Japanese. Long ago, in Kyoto, there were stores near temples where people would buy snacks after praying. Among these snacks were cookies with fortune slips inside. When the Japanese immigrated to the U.S., they brought this tradition with them.

 

The first business to produce fortune cookies in the U.S. was called "Benkyodo," which means “learning hall.” It was the first enterprise to commercialize fortune cookies in America, predating World War II.

 

During World War II, when Japanese Americans were forcibly relocated to internment camps, they had only about a month to leave their homes and businesses. Many sold their enterprises quickly. Since Japanese and Chinese communities often lived near each other in cities like San Francisco and Los Angeles, Chinese families took over many of these businesses, including Benkyodo.

 

Chinese immigrants then began distributing fortune cookies to Chinese restaurants, integrating them into Chinese dining culture in the U.S. So, the fortune cookie’s association with Chinese restaurants is directly tied to the internment of Japanese Americans during the war.

 

Li: You mentioned that Chinese and Japanese people often lived near each other.

 

Cao: Yes, and often with Koreans as well.

 

Li: In your paper, during the third phase—the latter half of the 20th century—you mentioned that Japanese people in the U.S. and other countries started running Chinese restaurants because Chinese cuisine was more popular and profitable.

 

  

Challenges For Overseas Chinese Cuisine (Part 1)

Cao: One major issue with Chinese cuisine abroad is its heavy reliance on specific ingredients sourced from China. By the 1960s, due to the complete severance of ties with mainland China, these ingredients were no longer readily available.

Chinese cuisine often requires unique items, such as liaoshen (sea cucumbers from Liaoning). When trade with mainland China was cut off, overseas Chinese restaurants had to resort to substitutes, such as sea cucumbers from Japan, which were somewhat comparable and readily available. This explains why many overseas Chinese restaurants initially imported ingredients from Japan.

For instance, dried sea cucumbers—originally sourced from Liaoning—could be replaced with Japanese counterparts. Similarly, dried oysters (haoshi), a specialty of Guangdong, became difficult to procure if Guangdong's coastal trade was blocked. Hong Kong could supply some of these items, but for certain northern ingredients, Japan became the only viable source.

Another example is facai (a type of edible hair-like moss, also known as "black moss"), commonly used in Guangdong cuisine. It’s a unique ingredient traditionally sourced from northwest China, but with trade routes disrupted, it was nearly impossible to obtain.

Ingredients like facai, dried oysters, and pork knuckles are staples of Guangdong New Year dishes. In the 1960s, Chinese restaurants in North America struggled to secure these essential ingredients, making it difficult to maintain authentic flavors. Japan’s ability to fill this supply gap was crucial during this period, especially as connections with mainland China were unavailable.

 
 

Timeline of Overseas Chinese Cuisine Development (Three Phases) 

Li: Got it. Let’s outline the timeline of overseas Chinese cuisine development. In your 2019 article, The Self-Identity of Overseas Chinese Cuisine, you divided the evolution into three distinct phases:

  1. First Phase (Mid-16th Century to Pre-Opium War): This reflects the dietary habits of overseas Chinese, particularly in the regions surrounding the South China Sea.
  2. Second Phase (Post-1842 Opium War to 1949): A period of transformation in overseas Chinese cuisine.
  3. Third Phase (Post-20th Century to Present): A stage of self-identity building in overseas Chinese communities.

For the first phase, spanning from the mid-Ming Dynasty to the pre-Opium War period, one term often associated with this era is Nyonya Cuisine. You describe how Chinese migrants brought their sense of culinary superiority to the regions around the South China Sea, teaching local populations to cook Chinese food. Can you explain what Nyonya Cuisine is, its flavors, and its ingredients?

 

Cao: Nyonya Cuisine. The phases I outlined aren’t strictly chronological; I prefer to categorize them by their intended audience. The first phase, pre-Opium War, is characterized by dishes “made for Chinese people to eat.”

During this time, Chinese migrants—typically merchants or envoys—held high social status. They weren’t laborers, so they didn’t cook for others but instead had food prepared for them. This reflected a master-servant dynamic: “I’ll teach you how to cook Chinese food because I want to eat Chinese food.”

At this stage, Chinese cuisine was shaped by the Chinese Empire’s inherent colonial tendencies. For instance, figures like Liang Qichao wrote about the colonial ambitions of the Chinese Empire in works like The Chronicles of Chinese Colonization. As a northern empire, China had a natural colonial inclination, akin to other temperate-zone empires. Early Chinese migrants utilized local ingredients like pepper and cardamom, adapting them into Chinese culinary traditions, but the dishes were still meant for Chinese consumption.

After the Opium War, the dynamic shifted. The once-colonial Chinese found themselves in a subordinate position, transitioning from masters to servants. This marked the beginning of a period where Chinese cooks started making dishes “for foreigners to eat.”

Chinese laborers working overseas had to cater to foreign tastes to earn a living. Dishes like Li Hongzhang Chop Suey emerged during this time, tailored entirely to Western palates. The aesthetics and flavor profiles of Chinese cuisine were adjusted to appeal to Western tastes because they were the paying customers.

 

Li: And the third phase?

 

Cao: The third phase began after the 1960s and represents a new chapter: the “establishment of self-identity.”

Overseas Chinese communities began creating a distinct cultural identity for themselves. Previously, their identity was tied closely to China, but severed ties with the mainland from 1949 to 1978 forced them to adapt. They had limited or no contact with their ancestral lands, aside from some connections to Taiwan—which often felt disconnected since many overseas Chinese were from Guangdong or Fujian, not Taiwan.

This separation necessitated the creation of a new identity. For instance, in the U.S., American Chinese cuisine developed its own traditions, such as the fortune cookie, which is now a symbol of Chinese dining in America. Similarly, the takeout box with a pagoda printed on it has become a cultural icon.

When people criticize American Chinese food as “inauthentic,” its defenders respond, “This is authentic Chinese cuisine for us.” And they’re not wrong. Mainland Chinese cuisine has undergone its own revolutions and transformations, so no one has the authority to claim absolute authenticity.

 

Lin: So, the concept of “authenticity” is overly simplistic.

 

Li: It’s a false proposition.

 

Cao: Exactly. Living on this land doesn’t grant you absolute authority over what defines Chinese culture. The concept of “China” itself is constantly evolving.

Everyone, both overseas and in China, is reconstructing cultural traditions from the remnants of the past. Whether it’s rebuilding a pagoda from the rubble of the Porcelain Tower of Nanjing or creating fortune cookies, it’s all part of the same continuum of reimagining Chinese identity. There’s no absolute authenticity—just different interpretations of the same heritage.

 

The Transformation of Chinese Cuisine and the Evolution of Symbols

 

Li: Yes, and speaking of the forced transformation of Chinese restaurants that Teacher Cao mentioned earlier, there’s an interesting element tied to this: Chop Suey.

Before the transformation, Chinese restaurants had a distinct aesthetic. For instance, I came across an Edward Hopper painting titled Chop Suey, which depicts two American women eating chop suey in a restaurant. Outside the restaurant, there’s a neon sign that says “Chop Suey.” The term itself is derived from Cantonese and was directly translated into English.

In Hopper’s time, Chinese restaurants often resembled cafes, with minimalistic and elegant interiors and neon signage. However, after their transformation, the approach changed. Neon lights gave way to red lanterns, ornate décor, and an increased emphasis on “Chinese” elements to highlight a more traditional, imagined version of Chinese culture. This shift was a deliberate effort to lean into cultural heritage and move away from the perceived Westernization of the cuisine.

 

Cao: It’s interesting you mention those red lanterns. The round lanterns we now associate with Chinese restaurants were actually popularized post-1949 and are modeled after Japanese designs. They’re not traditional at all.

Historically, Chinese lanterns were typically octagonal palace lanterns, which were far more intricate and elaborate. But how many overseas Chinese restaurants hang those today? A few still do, but the broader point is that the symbols and imagery tied to Chinese cuisine are constantly evolving. What we see as “traditional” today often reflects a blend of historical reinterpretation and cultural drift.

 

Li: So, the “traditional” we imagine is often a recent invention, shaped by external influences.

 

Cao: Exactly. Symbols, like the aesthetics of Chinese cuisine, are in a constant state of flux, adapting to both cultural context and audience expectations.

 


Southern Asian Cusine

 

Li: Earlier, we transitioned from Nyonya cuisine to American Chinese food and then to modern Chinese cuisine. One notable aspect of Nyonya cuisine is the meaning behind the term “Nyonya.” Before this event, Haodong mentioned to me that Nyonya refers to women of Chinese descent in the regions surrounding the South China Sea. Specifically, it’s a term for Peranakan women, and the cuisine associated with them often has a homemade, family-style character.

 

Cao: Yes, Nyonya simply means “mother.”

 

Li: For instance, dishes like Laksa come to mind. In your lectures, you’ve mentioned that the original meaning of the term Laksa is “abundance” or “a lot.”

 

Cao: Actually, Laksa is a Tamil word, which connects it to Indian influences. Chinese migrants to Southeast Asia inevitably interacted with Indians, as they were a significant cultural and economic force in the region.

When examining Southeast Asian culture, it’s clear that it’s shaped by multiple layers: indigenous cultures, Indian influences, Chinese traditions, Western colonial legacies, and Islamic elements from Arab traders. Southeast Asia is a fascinating cultural crossroads, blending all these influences into a unique and diverse heritage.

 

 

The Sweetness and Spiciness of Overseas Chinese Cuisine

 

Li: When drafting the outline, I had a question about dishes like General Tso’s Chicken and Orange Chicken, which are quintessential examples of overseas Chinese cuisine. Their defining flavor element is sweetness—General Tso’s Chicken, for instance, is sweet and spicy. I’m curious, when did sweetness become an integral part of Chinese cuisine? I know sugar was introduced to China from India during the Tang Dynasty, when Chinese envoys brought back the technique for refining brown sugar. Later, by the Ming Dynasty, sugar production became more refined.

 

Cao: In the Ming Dynasty, Quanzhou’s refined sugar, known as “Quanzhou Sugar,” was particularly famous.

 

Li: Right, and sugar production techniques were developed early.

 

Cao: Ji Xianlin wrote extensively about this in his book on the history of sugar. He explains it in detail, especially the prominence of Quanzhou sugar during the Tang Dynasty. By the Song Dynasty, it had become an export commodity, even shipped back to India.

 

Li: It seems that the techniques for producing refined brown sugar and white sugar were highly advanced in Quanzhou. Indian producers even learned these methods. Could the combination of sweetness and spiciness have become popular overseas as a way to cater to locals who couldn’t handle overly spicy flavors?

 

Cao: That’s a possibility. It’s worth noting that spiciness itself wasn’t a prominent element in traditional Chinese cuisine. The widespread use of chili peppers is a post-1950s phenomenon. Before that, Chinese cuisine wasn’t particularly spicy. For instance, I once discussed this with Zhuang Zhuyi, who mentioned how old-school Sichuan dishes she tried in Taipei weren’t heavily spiced. Similarly, I’ve had traditional Sichuan dishes from my childhood that were more rich and flavorful rather than overtly spicy. Spiciness, as a dominant flavor, only became popular after the revolution. Before 1949, chili was rarely served at formal banquets—it was more of a personal seasoning. The combination of sweetness and spiciness was likely developed to align with Western expectations of “exotic” flavors, catering to their imagination of the East.

 

Li: That makes sense.

 

Cao: It’s all about catering to their expectations. By this time, Chinese chefs were no longer cooking for themselves or other Chinese people but rather for foreigners. They had to consider what their customers wanted, much like how writers consider their readers’ preferences.

 

Li: That logic fits with the second phase of overseas Chinese cuisine, where the food was adapted to suit local tastes.

 

Cao: Exactly. Chinese chefs had to constantly anticipate and adapt to the preferences of their audience.

 

Oversea Chinese Cuisine During the Chinese Exclusion Act 

Li: After 1868, during the following decade, there was a significant influx of people from Guangdong and Hong Kong to San Francisco, including gold miners and merchants. However, in the 1880s, the Chinese Exclusion Act was enacted, leading to widespread anti-Chinese sentiment. This sentiment was reflected in various forms of propaganda, such as claims about Chinese restaurants, then known as “Yellow Flag Restaurants,” because each would hang a yellow flag at its entrance, symbolizing some connection to Chinese identity.

 

Cao: Those flags were actually the Yellow Dragon Flags, the national flag of the Qing Dynasty.

 

Li: I heard that in China, it would have been impossible to use yellow or the Yellow Dragon emblem, but overseas, there weren’t such restrictions.

 

Cao: That’s not quite right. Hanging the national flag indicated that these establishments were under the protection of the Qing government. While the Qing Dynasty was often criticized for being weak, it wasn’t powerless to the extent that it couldn’t act. During the Rock Springs Massacre, for example, the U.S. was compelled to pay compensation, and Chinese diplomats negotiated the matter. The Qing government saw the protection of its overseas citizens as a significant responsibility.

 

Li: I’ve read that not all Chinese immigrants to San Francisco were laborers—some were self-funded migrants.

 

Cao: Most of them were laborers. The victims of the Rock Springs Massacre, for instance, were all laborers. This incident, a major conflict between China and the U.S., involved the targeted massacre of Chinese individuals, resulting in 10 or 30 deaths—I can’t recall the exact number. Nevertheless, it led to serious diplomatic negotiations demanding compensation, apologies, and a thorough investigation. The Qing government, particularly through its Zongli Yamen (Office for General Management), made significant efforts to protect its overseas citizens. This attitude differed greatly from the Indonesian anti-Chinese actions later in history.

 

Li: Speaking of anti-Chinese sentiment, there were rumors at the time claiming that Chinese restaurants used unusual ingredients, such as rats. Could this have influenced the adoption of more local ingredients?

 

Cao: Not really. Chinese restaurants had always relied on local ingredients because importing goods from China was too impractical. At the time, crossing the Pacific by ship took about three months. Only dried goods like dried lily buds or wood ear mushrooms could survive such a journey, but most meat and fresh produce had to be sourced locally.

 

A key feature of overseas Chinese cuisine before the 20th century was its reliance on local ingredients. Chinese immigrants adapted to whatever was available in local markets. Furthermore, Chinese laborers made substantial contributions to California’s agriculture, essentially laying the foundation for the state’s agricultural industry. I’m currently working on a book about the activities of Chinese immigrants in California after the Chinese Exclusion Act, including their roles in farming and running restaurants.

 

Li: I also read that Guangdong immigrants taught locals fishing techniques.

 

Cao: That’s correct. They also began oyster farming during this period. Essentially, Guangdong immigrants created a “Little Guangdong” or “New Cantongnia” in that region.

 

Li: Anti-Chinese sentiment also gave rise to certain stereotypes. For example, at the time, there was a notion that eating beef was a sign of masculine strength, whereas rice consumption, associated with Asians, was viewed as a symbol of labor and servitude. The term “worker ants” was used as a derogatory label for Chinese laborers.

 

Cao: That was indeed one of the narratives.

 

Li: What’s fascinating is that despite such stereotypes and anti-Chinese sentiment, Chinese restaurants actually proliferated during this period. Why is that?

 

Cao: Here’s why. Anti-Chinese sentiment was particularly strong in California, where the Chinese population was about 50,000 or 60,000 at the time. The hostility, however, was mostly confined to the Pacific Coast states, such as California, Oregon, and Washington. Inland states had little exposure to Chinese people and thus less prejudice.

 

As a result, many Chinese immigrants left California for the Midwest. In smaller towns with only one or two Chinese families, there wasn’t enough of a population to generate hostility. Locals were more curious than prejudiced.

 

For example, think about how people perceive Africans in Guangzhou today. Even if there are 80,000 Africans in Guangzhou, most Chinese people in inland areas have never encountered an African person. Instead of prejudice, they are more likely to express curiosity—wondering about their appearance or culture. This was similar to how Chinese immigrants were perceived in small American towns at the time.

 

Chinese restaurants multiplied because immigrants who couldn’t thrive in California moved to places like Nebraska, where they were often the only Chinese residents. They found opportunities to open restaurants, which piqued the curiosity of locals and attracted customers.

 

Li: So, Chinese restaurants and Chinatowns became sources of fascination.

 

Cao: Exactly. The dispersion of Chinese laborers after the Chinese Exclusion Act inadvertently spread Chinese cuisine across the U.S.

 

Li: Another perspective is that, despite the anti-Chinese sentiment, some white men in patriarchal societies looked down on cooking and laundry work. This disdain may have inadvertently encouraged the spread of Chinese restaurants.

 

Cao: That’s a good observation. The Chinese laundry business actually began in California. Early Chinese immigrants were mostly gold miners—men who didn’t know how to cook or wash clothes. Chinese immigrants stepped in to fill these needs, finding that running laundries or restaurants was often safer and more lucrative than gold mining.

 

Gold mining was dangerous, with Chinese laborers frequently attacked by white miners in remote areas. Urban areas offered better protection under the law, which is why Chinese immigrants increasingly moved to cities and took up safer trades like laundry and food service.

 

Li: This reminds me of movies like those by Spike Lee, where Asian-owned stores in urban neighborhoods are often targeted by gangs.

 

Cao: That’s an ongoing issue in Western societies, especially in the U.S., where incidents of looting and vandalism remain prevalent. Historically, similar challenges shaped the choices of Chinese immigrants, who adapted by focusing on safer, city-based industries.

 

Li: Moving beyond the Chinese Exclusion Act, in 1956, immigration laws were reformed, removing barriers for Chinese immigrants. This marked a turning point, with dishes like General Tso’s Chicken and Chop Suey emerging and gaining popularity. Speaking of General Tso’s Chicken, I recently watched a documentary called The Search for General Tso.

 

 

 

History Behind General Tso’s Chicken

 

Cao: Yes, the documentary The Search for General Tso was directed by Jennifer Lee.

 

Li: That’s right, it was her film. One particularly interesting part was when she interviewed Americans, asking them, “Who is General Tso?” Their responses were quite imaginative—some thought he was a Mongolian general clad in jade or golden armor, picturing him as a mythical military figure. It was fascinating to see these overlapping stereotypes: they didn’t know who General Tso was, nor did they know the history behind overseas Chinese cuisine, so they conjured up this fictionalized image of a general. I wonder if you, Teacher Cao, have a definitive answer about the history of General Tso’s Chicken? I read that it originated with Peng Chang-kuei.

 

Cao: Yes, Peng Chang-kuei. I also agree with Jennifer Lee’s research. She traced it back to Peng, and after he introduced the dish, it quickly spread to almost every Chinese restaurant in the United States.

 

Li: Peng was a personal chef for Chiang Kai-shek, and after retreating to Taiwan, a U.S. Navy officer visited Taiwan and was served an original creation by Peng.

 

Cao: It wasn’t an entirely original dish. It’s based on a traditional Chinese recipe called Orange Chicken.

 

Li: I see. The officer loved the dish, and when Peng later opened a restaurant in New York in the 1950s, General Tso’s Chicken became a staple there.

 

Cao: Exactly. Peng’s restaurant in Taiwan still serves the original version of the dish today.

 

Li: Speaking of adaptations, the earliest version of General Tso’s Chicken included chicken skin. Why was the skin removed in later versions?

 

Cao: The removal of chicken skin was primarily due to local sourcing in the U.S. Most chicken sold in the American market comes pre-processed and skinned. Chinese restaurants would simply use what was readily available rather than processing whole chickens themselves. Only high-end restaurants catering to a select clientele might prepare a whole chicken from scratch.

 

 

Critique of Authenticity 

        

Li: Here’s a more abstract question: when we talk about authenticity, it’s often debated in the context of dishes like General Tso’s Chicken. In the documentary, another Chinese chef, Chef Wang, claimed that he invented the dish.

 

Cao: I think debates over authenticity are meaningless. Discussions about what’s “authentic” or “original” don’t hold much value because everyone has their own perspective. In this postmodern era, trying to define authenticity from an elite perspective—like saying the version Peng served to the Seventh Fleet commander is the only authentic General Tso’s Chicken—comes off as elitist, don’t you think?

 

Li: I agree.

 

Cao: In this postmodern era, one of the key characteristics is decentralization. Defining authenticity is, in itself, an act of centralization, a way of imposing one narrative over all others.

 

Li: Authenticity becomes a form of cultural hegemony. If something isn’t deemed “authentic” within a dominant framework, it’s marginalized.

 

Cao: Exactly. As Gramsci said, “Authenticity is determined by the ruling class.” Why should the dish served to elites be considered authentic while the food enjoyed by ordinary people isn’t? If I like dipping dumplings in ketchup, who’s to say that isn’t authentic?

 

Li: I came across an interesting anecdote: Chef Wang later claimed to have modified General Tso’s Chicken by emphasizing sweetness and frying techniques, and he wanted to rename it “Zeng Guofan Chicken” after Zeng Guofan, who was General Tso’s mentor. However, during translation, a mix-up occurred. General Tso’s Chicken, known as General Tso’s Chicken, was confused with General Tsang’s Chicken due to unfamiliarity with the romanization system. The name reverted to General Tso’s Chicken, so his attempt to rebrand the dish failed.

 

Cao: Every Chinese restaurant in America has its own recipe for General Tso’s Chicken. Some add broccoli to the presentation; others drizzle honey on top. Each version is unique.

 

Li: I’ve seen recipes where they use honey too.

 

Cao: It’s all about catering to preferences—whatever works, they’ll do it.

 

Li: Similarly, Chop Suey is essentially a stir-fry of leftover meats and vegetables with some soy sauce. I’ve even read that in Jamaican restaurants, they serve their own version called “American Chop Suey,” which is entirely a localized American dish.

 

Cao: I remember once traveling to Sri Lanka, where an Indian chef served “Chinese food.” He made a version of Chop Suey and called it American cuisine. It was delicious.

 

Li: If it’s tasty, that’s all that matters.

 

Cao: Exactly. Whether you call it Chinese food, Sri Lankan food, or American food doesn’t matter—it’s just food.

 

Li: In the documentary, they mention that the dish isn’t really Chinese or Sri Lankan—it’s American.

 

Cao: Exactly. General Tso’s Chicken has fully evolved into an American dish. It’s rooted in America, tailored for American tastes, and widely accepted by Americans. It’s as authentically American as it gets.

 

The United States itself is a melting pot of cultures, where multicultural assimilation happens continuously. Chinese cuisine has become part of that process, and every Chinese descendant has the right to define Chinese culture. For instance, if I want to say dumplings dipped in ketchup represent Chinese culture, that’s my prerogative.

 

Li: That’s a bold stance.

 

Cao: As historian Yu Ying-shih famously said, “Wherever I am, there is China.” We need cultural confidence. We have the power to define Chinese culture in our own way.

 

 

The Naming Conventions of Overseas Chinese Cuisine (Compared to Western Naming Traditions)

 

Li: Earlier, we discussed dishes like General Tso’s Chicken. During this event, Haodong proposed a theme centered around naming, which I’d like to explore further with you, Teacher Cao. I understand naming in the context of how we translate traditional Chinese dish names into English. This is not just a linguistic process but also a form of rebranding or reinterpretation. I came across some resources outlining methods for translating Chinese dish names into English menus. There are generally two approaches: the descriptive translation method, which combines transliteration, explanation, and literal translation, and the artistic translation method, which blends transliteration, explanation, and imagery. General Tso’s Chicken is an example of the latter—a very Americanized translation. After all, “General” isn’t a direct equivalent to Zuo Zongtang’s title.

 

Cao: It’s interesting because Chinese cuisine rarely names dishes after people. For example, take “Li Hongzhang Chop Suey.” To a Chinese person, this name might sound like an insult to Li Hongzhang, as if you’re calling him a “chop suey” or a mess. Naming dishes after individuals isn’t a traditional Chinese practice.

Li: So, dishes are typically named after places?

 

Cao: Exactly. In Chinese culinary tradition, dishes are more often named after locations, like “Zigong Cold Rabbit” or “Guangdong Cheung Fun” (rice noodle rolls). These place-based names carry meaning for Chinese speakers. When you mention Zigong, for example, it evokes an association with salty and spicy Yanbang cuisine. However, these place names often mean nothing to native English speakers; they’re just unfamiliar syllables.

 

To make these names relatable, they are often reimagined with human associations. For instance, in General Tso’s Chicken, the emphasis is on the word “General.” For English speakers, the term immediately conjures up a mental image of strength or grandeur, perhaps of a robust Mongolian general on horseback defeating armies. This is purely imaginative, as the historical Zuo Zongtang bore no such resemblance.

 

Li: The hardest names to translate are those steeped in metaphor or imagery, such as Buddha Jumps Over the Wall or Ants Climbing a Tree. These names carry layers of meaning that don’t easily cross cultural boundaries. Western cuisine, on the other hand, seems relatively rational in its naming conventions.

 

Cao: That’s not always true. Take Beef Wellington, for example. It’s named after a person. Then there’s Napoleon Cake or Caesar Salad—also named after historical figures. Western culture has a long tradition of naming dishes after people. Eggs Benedict is another example.

 

In the case of Napoleon Cake, it wasn’t originally named after Napoleon Bonaparte but after Naples. Its original French name was Mille-feuille de Naples (Naples puff pastry). Somewhere along the line, a transcription error during translation rendered it as “Napoleon,” and the name stuck in places like the U.S. and Canada.

 

Similarly, Beef Wellington originates from a French dish called puff pastry beef. When British cooks adopted it, they renamed it after the Duke of Wellington, who famously defeated Napoleon—turning it into a patriotic dish.

 

Names like Buddha Jumps Over the Wall also require cultural context. Simply transplanting such names into another language often fails to convey their original significance.

 

Li: I’ve noticed that overseas Chinese menus often feature “Kung Pao Chicken” (a direct phonetic transliteration of Gongbao), but not Yuxiang (Fish Fragrant). Instead, Yuxiang dishes are usually translated as “Garlic-like” or “Fish Flavor.” This surprises me because both are well-known dishes in China.

 

Cao: In Americanized Chinese cuisine, you’ll also see names like “Egg Foo Young,” which is another transliteration. Cultural adaptation means that sometimes it’s better not to overthink translation. The dish’s name and its significance will naturally evolve through the interactions between chefs and diners.

 

Personally, I think phonetic transliteration is a great starting point. For instance, I believe dumplings should simply be written as Jiaozi, not “Dumpling.” The word “dumpling” in Western cultures refers to something entirely different, like Italian dumplings stuffed with cheese. Using the native Chinese term demonstrates cultural confidence.

 

Li: I’ve seen “Dragon” used interchangeably with Long (the Chinese word for dragon).

 

Cao: That’s a good example. Directly using Chinese phonetics is often the best approach. Other examples in American culture include Bok Choy (白菜) and Wok (锅), which have been integrated as-is into the English lexicon. These terms became familiar through gradual cultural integration. Similarly, the Japanese don’t translate Ramen as “noodles”; they simply call it Ramen. Their Gyoza (dumplings) is another example of retaining the original name.

 

Li: Names like Dan Dan Noodles have also been transliterated directly, but they seem to carry a sense of being a hybrid between Chinese and Japanese cuisine.

 

Cao: Yes, and Japan is a particularly interesting case in the study of overseas Chinese cuisine. While Americanized Chinese food tends to be a blend of cultural integration, European Chinese cuisine often reflects an attempt to assimilate but faces resistance from the dominant local culture.

 

In Japan, Chinese cuisine has been fully localized. Dishes like dumplings, Tianjin rice, and Mapo tofu have become distinctly Japanese interpretations. They’ve not just been assimilated but completely fused into Japanese culinary tradition.

 

Meanwhile, in Southeast Asia, the situation is entirely different. I’d classify overseas Chinese cuisine into four patterns: assimilation, marginalization, integration, and fusion. Japan’s approach is fascinating for its creativity—for example, they’ve added strawberries to Mapo tofu, which is bold and inventive. Even the creation of Utsunomiya Gyoza reflects the unique cultural adaptation of Chinese dishes in Japan.

 

The Trends in Chinese Cuisine

 

Li: From the origins of Nyonya Cuisine to modern American Chinese dishes, we’ve covered various aspects of Chinese food abroad. I recently read Fuchsia Dunlop’s new book and listened to an interview where she discussed emerging trends in overseas Chinese cuisine. She identified three trends: hotpot-ization, standardization, and noodle-ization. Dunlop sees these as troubling developments, especially the trend toward hotpot-ization, which she views as a regression.

 

Hotpot restaurants, with their reliance on centralized kitchens and pre-made ingredients, represent a move away from traditional chef-led cooking. Dunlop argues this trend signifies the loss of culinary artistry and variety.

 

Cao: I’ve been meaning to buy her book. Based on what you’ve shared, hotpot-ization indeed seems inevitable. China’s current trend toward pre-prepared foods could accelerate this shift.

 

To understand this phenomenon, we need to consider broader societal changes, including the alienation of labor and the impact of consumerism. These are enormous topics. My upcoming book delves into how labor, especially in the kitchen, has been commodified and transformed.

 

Hotpot-ization reflects this broader trend. While I personally hope to delay its onset, the reality is that this trajectory is hard to stop. Humanity has been on a downward spiral since the dawn of agriculture, moving further away from our primal connection to food. From the industrial age’s regimentation of time to the post-industrial era’s 996 work culture, life has become increasingly disconnected from the joys of living.

 

Li: The topic of food as a cultural metaphor is fascinating. For instance, in Ang Lee’s Eat Drink Man Woman, the father prepares an elaborate meal for his family, only for his Americanized relatives to misunderstand its significance by starting with the decorative garnishes. This comedic yet poignant moment reflects the cultural gap in how food is perceived.

 

Cao: I believe everything served at the table should be edible. Decorative carvings are better suited for display in a gallery than a dining table. The primary purpose of a meal is to satisfy hunger—this is a fundamental rule of dining.

 

Li: But some hotpot restaurants use mannequins to display meat slices.

 

Cao: I’ve rarely encountered that. It’s not something I frequent.

 

Li: Haodong, do you have any other questions?

 

Lin: No, I don’t.

 

Cao: Let me quickly address standardization and noodle-ization. These trends reflect a move toward specialization, which I see as a positive development. Traditional overseas Chinese restaurants often tried to offer everything—noodles, rice dishes, dim sum, teas—but this made it difficult to excel in any one area.

 

Specialization allows restaurants to focus on a few signature dishes and perfect them. For instance, many Sichuan restaurants today focus solely on water-boiled fish or other key dishes, which is an improvement over attempting to do everything poorly.

 

Li: That’s a great point. Thank you, Teacher Cao. Does anyone else have questions?

 

Cao: Any questions from the audience?

 

 

Food Metaphors (Power Shift) and Pancosmic Tendencies

 

Audience 1: We’ve talked a lot about the relationship between language and food, as well as the political undertones embedded within these connections. For example, in the discussion about whether something is “authentic,” there are underlying political implications. I’ve noticed that some press releases use terms like “central kitchen” as metaphors, implying an information bubble akin to pre-made dishes being centrally controlled and distributed. This concept has even trickled into podcasts. I recently listened to an episode where someone referred to the Oscars as a gathering of white liberals making dumplings together. Food metaphors seem to pervade not only political strategies but also cultural narratives—for instance, phrases like “starting from scratch” (lingqi luzao).

 

I’m curious about your thoughts on the intersection of food and language in political and social contexts. Could you recommend any books or materials that explore these ideas?

 

Cao: You mentioned phrases like “eating from the same pot” (chi daguofan) or “starting from scratch” (lingqi luzao), which indeed fall under what I’d call a “pancosmic tendency.” The Chinese language often connects everything to food or the act of eating. For example, we have phrases like “drinking the northwest wind” (he xibeifeng), “eating a lawsuit” (chi guansi), or “rice bucket” (fantong). These idioms reflect a deep cultural inclination to use food-related metaphors.

 

This tendency is unique to Chinese culture. In contrast, Western culture leans towards “abstinence,” with eating and appetite often framed as sinful under Christian traditions, where gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins. These differences result in divergent uses of food metaphors, especially when applied politically.

 

Currently, my research focuses on the relationship between alienation of labor and kitchen work, delving into ontological perspectives within anthropology. I’m working on a new book exploring themes of fermentation, the kitchen, and the transfer of power. For instance, the metaphor of the “central kitchen” hints at the broader issue of power dynamics: who decides what we eat, and who controls the narratives about our food?

 

When you order takeout or bubble tea, it feels convenient, but at the same time, we lose agency in choosing or preparing our food. We are guided—if not outright controlled—by consumerism and data-driven decisions.

 

Food, however, has a unique resistance to consumerism. While other commodities can be imbued with layered symbolic meanings, food cannot entirely escape its functional purpose—it must be edible. Unlike a handbag, whose utility is secondary to its symbolic value, food’s primary function is nourishment. Its inherent edibility anchors it as an anti-consumerist entity, even as it accumulates cultural or commercial meanings.

 

Audience Member 1: That’s fascinating. You’ve written about spice, fermentation, and sugar in the context of food anthropology. I’ve noticed that bitter foods, like bitter melon in Guangdong cuisine, often carry cultural connotations. How did bitterness become integrated into Chinese culinary traditions, and how has it spread?

 

Cao: Bitterness in Chinese cuisine is rooted in cultural imagination. In traditional Chinese medicine, bitterness is associated with cooling properties and medicinal benefits. This reflects a symbolic understanding of food as part of a larger system of bodily and cosmic harmony.

 

Chinese food consumption has always been steeped in symbolic meaning. For example, in The Plum in the Golden Vase (Jin Ping Mei), every dish and drink carries layered implications. When Ximen Qing chooses a particular jar of wine, it’s not just about preference—it symbolizes something deeper.

 

The appreciation of bitter melon in Guangdong stems from its cooling properties, tied to the region’s humid climate and the cultural emphasis on balance. Similarly, foods like herbal teas embody this symbolic framework. Even foods as straightforward as stinky tofu carry layers of cultural association—some brands, like Yu Qing Fang, are linked to historical figures like Empress Dowager Cixi, creating a symbolic experience for the consumer.

 

Despite this, food remains fundamentally about sustenance. No matter how symbolic or imagined, it must still fulfill its primary purpose of being edible.

 

  

Nationalism and Chinese Cuisine

 

Audience 2: Can you hear me? Apologies for the interruption. I haven’t read your works yet, so my question is limited to what you’ve discussed today. From your talk, I’m curious: which aspects of these phenomena are uniquely Chinese, and which might be universal? Specifically, how do you navigate methodological nationalism in your historical research on food?

 

Cao: Are you referring to nationalist methodologies in the analysis of food?

 

Audience 2: Yes, within the broader field of culinary studies. For example, when examining the experiences of Chinese Americans, how do you avoid a nationalist framing, or how do you approach it?

 

Cao: Food inherently carries nationalistic attributes, and Chinese cuisine is no exception. In the United States, Chinese food is often viewed as a cultural artifact of a distinct ethnic group. This lens inherently ties Chinese cuisine to nationalist and cultural identities.

 

For instance, Wang Qingfu, a Chinese pastor, strongly opposed the stereotype that Chinese restaurants served rat meat—a reflection of his nationalistic pride. Similarly, the practice of early Chinese restaurants displaying the Yellow Dragon Flag outside their establishments was a clear assertion of their cultural identity.

 

By the 1960s, however, many overseas Chinese communities began transitioning from a strong connection to China towards a more self-defined identity. This shift marked a move away from nationalism toward a “self-awareness” of their own hybrid identities. These communities began asserting their presence as Chinese, but not necessarily as representatives of China.

 

This distinction highlights a linguistic challenge. In English, “Chinese” conflates meanings that, in Chinese, are differentiated by terms like Zhongguo (the political entity of China) and Zhonghua (the broader cultural concept of China). Translating these nuanced identities into English often creates confusion.

 

Audience  2: I see. My question also touches on whether there’s space for comparative analysis. For example, when discussing Chinese contributions to California’s agriculture, could we also explore parallels with Italian or Swiss grape cultivation? In studying Chinese experiences, how do you account for overlaps with other immigrant groups, particularly in a context like America’s multi-ethnic society?

 

Cao: That’s an excellent point. A particularly compelling case is the relationship between Jewish communities and Chinese cuisine in the U.S. Michael D. Rosenblum’s talk at Yi Xi explores this beautifully. As a Jewish boy, his first encounter with dishes like radish cakes left a profound impression.

 

The Jewish affinity for Chinese food, particularly their tradition of eating it on Christmas, reflects an intriguing cultural exchange. This phenomenon offers valuable insight into how different immigrant communities interact with and reinterpret each other’s culinary traditions.

 

Such interactions underscore the broader immigrant experience in America, where various ethnic groups navigate both shared and distinct cultural dynamics. Thank you for your thought-provoking question.

 

 

 

Food Sculptures and the Legitimacy of Anthropological Perspectives

 

Audience 3: Hello, Professor Cao! I came prepared for this talk. You mentioned food sculptures earlier, and I actually came across your work through the Te Magazine article on betel nut. Interestingly, in the same issue, there was an article about food sculptures, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.

 

Cao: Food sculptures, you say.

 

Audience 3: Yes, specifically the article by Tang Han and Zhou Xiaopeng on the shapes of food. What do you think of it?

 

Cao: Food sculptures are a remnant of a bygone era, reflecting the aesthetics of Chinese nobility. If you look through old recipe books, especially those from before the 1970s, you’ll find plenty of examples of food sculptures. I’ve collected many such cookbooks, and they almost all include this practice. But honestly, I think food sculptures are unnecessary—they’re part of an outdated tradition. These creations are inedible and don’t taste good. If something can’t be eaten, why not replace it with a jade sculpture for display? My take on food sculptures is that they’re superfluous. Everything served at the table should be edible and delicious.

 

Audience 3: I also wanted to mention that dishes named after people are more common than you might think. In modern times, we have examples like Ma Lianliang Duck and Mao’s Braised Pork, which are highly symbolic. Looking back, there’s Dongpo Pork, Song Dynasty Grass Carp Soup, and Mapo Tofu. Some, like Dongpo Pork, are tied to specific individuals, while others, like Mapo Tofu, are more symbolic. Even today, many restaurants are named after family surnames, like “Zhang’s Stewed Meat” or “Li’s Noodles.”

 

Cao: That’s true. I may have overlooked that point earlier. Naming dishes after people is indeed a common cultural phenomenon, not unique to the West. For instance, Dragon Wontons is another example of a dish named after a person. That said, Chinese names tend to avoid using full names. Even with General Tso’s Chicken, only the title and last name are used, which is enough for recognition without needing full attribution.

 

Audience 3: Naming restaurants after surnames, especially smaller ones, is also quite prevalent. For example, “Li’s” or “Zhang’s” are everywhere. Sometimes they even combine geographic and personal names, like “Li’s Noodles of Crowtown.” They don’t always explicitly state what they specialize in.

 

I have a deeper question: In your Te Magazine article on betel nut, you wrote that “the anthropological perspective is a reflective tool, and care and empathy are its foundation.” How do you, as a Chinese person, maintain an external, observational perspective when studying Chinese food culture, given your shared or similar cultural identity?

 

Cao: That’s an excellent question. Honestly, it’s very difficult—almost impossible. The best perspective is that of an outsider. For example, someone like Roland (Michael D. Rosenblum) offers an excellent outsider’s perspective.

 

Audience 3: That raises another issue. If I were to study Indian cuisine, for instance, I wouldn’t have a deep understanding of their cultural or religious background. How can I objectively study such a culture? This seems to create a paradox—how do we balance being an outsider while achieving a meaningful understanding of the subject?

 

Cao: Based on my research experience, it’s ideal to adopt an outsider’s perspective. Being part of the culture you’re studying can make you too accustomed to its norms, leading to a lack of critical questioning—a dangerous trap in research. However, gaining an outsider’s perspective requires deep familiarity with the culture.

 

Take Indian cuisine, for example. To truly understand it, you’d need to know the culture in such depth that you could rival—or even surpass—the knowledge of locals. Scholars like Fuchsia Dunlop or Roland exemplify this. They’ve dedicated decades to studying Chinese cuisine, reaching a level of understanding that surpasses most native Chinese, while still maintaining an outsider’s perspective.

 

This kind of perspective demands years of effort. For example, Dunlop has spent over 20 years studying Chinese cooking, even attending culinary schools in Sichuan. Achieving this balance of deep understanding and outsider perspective is extremely challenging but invaluable for anthropological research.

 

Regarding objectivity, it’s nearly impossible to achieve. Look at Malinowski’s study of the Kula ring. Despite his contributions, his diaries reveal subjective biases. I admit my own subjectivity in my research—there are times when I taste something and think, “What on earth is this?” I accept that I cannot be completely objective and embrace my biases instead.

 

Audience 3: One more question—how did your research transition from studying chili peppers to betel nuts and then to fermented foods?

 

Cao: I’m always looking to challenge myself. If you’ve followed my public writing, you might have noticed a recent field study on pineapples. Pineapples share a research trajectory similar to chili peppers, so I’ve had my students work on it while I pursue more challenging topics.

 

Betel nuts presented a greater challenge due to their historical depth. Records of betel nut consumption date back to at least the Western Han Dynasty, giving them 1,500 more years of documented history than chili peppers. Analyzing such extensive historical data and exploring broader implications made betel nuts a more demanding subject.

 

Fermented foods, my current focus, are even more complex. I’m delving into the metaphysical aspects of fermentation—examining its cultural significance and the underlying attitudes it reflects. It’s about pushing boundaries and exploring deeper connections between food and culture.

 

Audience 3: If I wanted to study a culture distant from my own, like French cuisine, how would I gain the legitimacy or credibility to conduct such research?

 

Cao: The first step is mastering the language. Language is the gateway to understanding any culture. For instance, in Nigel Barley’s The Innocent Anthropologist, he begins his fieldwork in West Africa by learning the local language.

 

Similarly, when Dunlop came to China, she spent years in Sichuan culinary schools and working in kitchens, chopping ingredients and learning the craft. To study French cuisine, you’d need to do something similar: enroll in a French culinary school, spend months (or even years) working in kitchens, and travel across France to experience its regional variations. Only then would you have the depth of knowledge and credibility needed for meaningful research.

 

Audience 3: Got it. Thank you!

 

Cao: It’s a tough road, isn’t it?

 

 

On Power Relations in Everyday Food Practices (Labor Division)

 

Audience 4: Hello, Teacher Cao. Earlier, you mentioned that life for people seems to be getting worse. For example, ordering takeout may be convenient, but the food doesn’t taste as good. On the flip side, it seems that not only do the diners lack individuality in what they eat, but even the cooks don’t have the freedom to define what they make. There’s little room for them to express their personal style, as they’re often boxed into certain cuisines or trends. When talking about power relations, have you thought about what might constitute a healthier or more positive relationship between the cook and the eater? How could both parties have the opportunity to express individuality? This seems difficult to achieve in reality.

 

Cao: You’re absolutely right—it is challenging. But I think the best solution is to “lie flat.” From my perspective, lying flat is the optimal way out. Let’s consider the labor process of a chef. Their labor is alienated; they become tools for capital, fully commodified. Kitchens are highly divided workplaces where someone who preps ingredients may never actually cook a dish. This is pure alienated labor. When Marx discussed labor alienation, I often thought of cooking as one of the most representative examples.

 

On the other hand, cooking for yourself can be quite enjoyable. When I cook, I think about what I want to eat that day, prepare it, and enjoy it. For me, cooking is a great way to take a break—when I’m tired of writing, I go to the kitchen, cook a meal, eat, and then return to my work. Cooking doesn’t feel like a chore to me; it’s fulfilling and meaningful labor, as Marx described. Because I cook for myself or my family, it becomes deeply personal and rewarding.

 

The key to escaping the pain of alienated labor is to do things for yourself rather than for others.

 

Audience 4: But in that case, it seems like only those eating are also the ones cooking.

 

Cao: Exactly—it’s about cooking for yourself.

 

Audience 4: If the cook and the eater are two different people, it seems like the only option for the cook is to “escape” the role of being a chef. There doesn’t seem to be a way to build something more constructive between the two roles.

 

Cao: Yes, and that’s a limitation. For instance, housework can also be alienated labor. A mother, for example, might be compelled to cook for her family and may not enjoy it. However, this isn’t as extreme as the commodification of professional cooking. At least in the family context, there’s some emotional comfort—cooking for loved ones isn’t purely transactional.

 

Still, the best scenario remains cooking for yourself. Simplify your life as much as possible. For example, I don’t earn much, but I also don’t spend much, which keeps my life self-contained and manageable. Striving for self-sufficiency is a good approach—it helps you achieve a sense of balance in your own life.

 

Audience 4: So, it seems like this kind of power relationship is hard to change or influence.

 

Cao: Are you thinking about changing or intervening in these dynamics?

 

Audience 4: I’m not entirely sure. When you talk about power relationships, what exactly are you referring to in your research?

 

Cao: I’m mainly referring to the alienation of labor as described in Marxist theory.

 

Audience  4: So the conclusion is that it’s inherently difficult to change these dynamics?

 

Cao: Yes, I believe it’s unchangeable. The reality of social division of labor is deeply ingrained and immutable. As individuals within such a large, complex system, we’re like small ripples against a vast ocean. Trying to make a dent in this structure often feels futile.

 

Instead of focusing on others, focus on yourself. If you can’t change the system, at least you can improve your own life. Sometimes, trying to save others is unnecessary—do they even want to be “saved”? Moreover, attempts to turn earth into heaven often result in creating hell, so one must be cautious about such endeavors.

 

Audience 4: Thank you.

 

Cao: Perhaps my perspective sounds bleak.

 

Explaining Chinese Cuisine to Aliens

Audience 5: Hello, Teacher Cao. You’ve spoken a lot today; I’ll try to keep my question simple. I’ve lived abroad in Japan, and when Japanese friends ask me what Chinese cuisine is, I find it difficult to answer. I can describe Sichuan cuisine, Shandong cuisine, or Cantonese cuisine, but when it comes to defining “Chinese cuisine” as a whole, I struggle.

For example, some dishes in Japanese Chinese restaurants deviate from traditional Chinese cooking. Take kung pao shrimp made with ketchup or shrimp in mayonnaise (エビマヨ), which includes mustard and egg yolk. From a purist perspective, these wouldn’t qualify as Chinese dishes. Yet, in today’s context, they are considered Chinese cuisine because they’re served in Chinese restaurants abroad.

 

So, if you were tasked with explaining to aliens—who know nothing about human civilization—what makes a dish “Chinese,” how would you deconstruct and define it?

 

Cao: Someone has already attempted to address this question—Kwang-chih Chang. He was an archaeologist who specialized in food culture and wrote extensively about it. In his works, he identified five characteristics of Chinese food culture.

 

First, Chinese food culture is not a specific entity but a collection of concepts. For example, Japanese food culture is centered around rice, which holds a sacred, symbolic significance in Japan. A Japanese-American anthropologist, Emiko Ohnuki-Tierney, wrote Rice as Self, which explores this deep connection.

 

But China is different. Half of the population eats rice, while the other half consumes wheat. Chinese food culture is a symbolic system rather than a singular element.

 

One defining feature is the combination of local agricultural produce—plants and animals grown or raised in China. This defines the foundation of Chinese cuisine. Another key aspect is the principle of balancing “rice and dishes” (or staple and accompaniment). Even in overseas Chinese restaurants, you’ll find this principle reflected, distinguishing it from Western dining norms.

 

Chinese food culture also encompasses a belief system about food’s impact on the body. Ideas like “hot,” “cold,” and “balanced” foods, as well as how they affect health, are uniquely Chinese.

 

Additionally, there is the ritualistic and symbolic significance of food, such as in idiomatic expressions like “seizing the cauldron” (representing power) or dietary rules that reflect respect and hierarchy.

 

According to Kwang-chih Chang, Chinese food culture is a collection of symbols, not a singular, tangible entity. It is an abstract system that cannot be destroyed because it’s not a specific object but a constellation of meanings.

 

Audience 5: Your explanation answers my question—thank you.

 

Cao: I’m glad it helped. When you’re stuck, refer to Chang’s writings—they provide a solid foundation.

 

 

On Fusion Cuisine: Chinese-Western Cooking

Audience 5:  Apologies, I have one more, smaller question. How do you view the current trend of Chinese-Western fusion cuisine? I’m not referring to Chinese food adapted by immigrants abroad, but rather modern “creative” or “fusion” dishes. Is fusion cuisine a product of our contemporary times, or does it have historical roots?

Cao: It’s not a modern phenomenon—it has always existed. As early as the Tang Dynasty, Chinese people were already engaged in what we might call “Chinese-Western fusion” or “Western-Chinese fusion” cooking.

For example, during the Tang era, they introduced a dish called biluo (饆饠), a food brought from Central Asia. There was even a variation called Crab Biluo, which appeared in imperial feasts like the Burnt Tail Banquet. If you study historical cookbooks, you’ll find numerous examples of foods adopted from Persia, the Middle East, India, and Southeast Asia.

The Chinese have never stopped learning from others or exporting their culinary traditions. Fusion, global exchange, and cultural blending have always been central themes in the history of Chinese cuisine.

For instance, broccoli only came to China about 40 years ago, but it’s now a staple in many Chinese dishes. Another example is okra, which has increasingly found its way into Chinese cooking. Fusion is a continuous process—it has never stopped, nor is it unique to modern times.

Audience 5: Thank you, Professor Cao.

Li: That wraps up today’s talk. Thank you so much, Teacher Cao, and thank you to everyone who attended this session. It was a pleasure.

Cao: Thank you all. It was great to meet and exchange ideas with everyone.

Li: Hopefully, we’ll get to meet in person next time.

Cao: Yes, once I finish writing my book, I’d love to visit Beijing.

Li: Perfect, we’ll look forward to it. For today, let’s call it a wrap.

Cao: Alright, goodbye!

 

  


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讲座背景 🥡

林: 那咱们就开始了,首先就是欢迎曹老师,还有李秋实来到我们的空间,先让两位自我介绍一下。

李: 那我先,大家好!我是李秋实,曹老师好!我目前在做一档播客叫偶然误差FM,然后会根据一些比较好玩的流行文化,或者是影视文文学作品里面的,一些小的切入点,然后展开一些对谈。今天非常开心,经过浩东的邀请,跟曹老师来一场关于海外中国菜的聊天。

曹: 大家好,我在广州跟大家连线,很遗憾不能来现场,毕竟我是一个连那个学生要求线上上课,我都会拒绝的老师,因为过去三年的这种经历让我不是很喜欢这样的。但因为我现在忙着书稿的事,尽量的还是想把时间放在我自己的书稿上面,所以就还是没有去北京,只能线上跟大家见面,挺抱歉的,但能够谈点东西总是好的。林: 我先给大家介绍一下讲座的背景。我是林浩东,是本次展览的策展人,也是龟力空间的负责人。之所以会有一个这样的讲座,是大家如果刚刚过来参观过的,会发现这次展览的作品都是一些非常日常的东西,它包括身体,包括视角。讲座的一个出发点就是关于艺术家陈雨星的作品,大家可以再看一下她的作品,是关于塔的。然后这些塔全部都是那些在英国的,且由英国人建造的中国的塔。那时候在南京有一个非常有名的塔,叫大报恩寺琉璃塔,这个塔可以说是17世纪18世纪的网红打卡点,基本上所有外国人来中国,都会去参观,然后做档案、做记录。这个塔后来在太平天国运动中被毁了,所以就现在只有那些档案。艺术家陈雨星的作品,一个创作手法是把这个塔抠掉,然后让大家去反思所谓的东方主义。所以她的作品,在我看来,是一种基于日常视角的反思。然后为什么会连接到食物上,首先食物它是一个非常日常的东西,基本上大家每天都要吃几顿饭。还有一个非常有意思的事情,就是大家打开手机就会发现,不管你是华为手机,还是说是苹果手机,还是三星手机也好,打开那个手机的emoji 界面,你会发现里面有一个表情包,是一个外卖盒,并且是盒上面有一座塔,它是作为一个文化形象或者文化符号出现在中餐外卖盒上面,所以从外卖盒又可以回到食物本身,这就是本次讲座的一个出发点。

李: 然后外卖盒最开始是蛤蜊盒,如果没记错的话,后来各种美剧当中有的那种中餐外卖,都出现过那个盒子,它其实很简易,可以手动折叠,然后能承很多东西。我想做一个比较简单的引入,就是刚开始浩东跟我说有这么一次活动,主题是海外中国菜,我最开始想到的是一个比较抽象的一个主题“不正统、不传统”或者是稍微带一点不正宗的那种感觉,所以想先请大家或者是曹老师聊一聊,浩东聊一聊,你们印象当中,你其实没有那么传统,或是没有那么正统的吃法是什么?因为曹老师之前在那个讲座里面提到过,他在广东那边吃辣,好像家里边有这么一个习惯,跟身边人显得有那么一点点格格不入,就好像大家有一个共识,好像越往南方或者是越往广东那边吃辣的能力就不是那么强。我想先从这聊一聊,不知道浩东有没有?没有那么传统的饮食习惯。

林: 我是有的,因为我是福建福州那边的,然后我发现只有福建福州那块区域的人,大家吃饺子会蘸番茄酱。李: 邪教。林: 对只有福州那块地区,然后福建别的地方的人,他们吃饺子不沾番茄酱,可能这个不太正统!

李: 对我觉得是。曹: 我觉得我们可以que一下在场的观众,我觉得大家肯定都有一些不那么“中国”的行为。我想先问曹老师,就是番茄酱在中国的饮食文化里边是什么时候有的,近现代?

曹: 对,应该是随着食品工业开始以后才有的,和广东的酱油西餐一样,也是从19世纪以后才开始有。李: 不知道大家有没有?曹: 家里面有什么这样的很不中国的吃法?

李: 对,但是番茄的这个名字您在食辣史包括讲座也提到嘛,就是番茄,比如说胡椒、番胡、还有洋葱,就是番胡洋这三个命名食材的方式,都是因为他们是外来食物,通过水路也好,通过路补也好。曹: 中国很多东西都是外来的,你要本土的话,你现在就得去外面找点野菜了。

 

从饺子🥟到口味标准 

李: 其实说起饺子,我还真想到一个。前两天翻看林浩东家里的一本书,是一个脱口秀演员叫Ali Wong,她是一个越南裔的美国人,她写了一本新书,然后它里边有一篇章叫做《教你如何辨别在海外的亚洲餐馆的正宗程度》,她列了一个表格,写的那个中餐馆,日料馆还有越南菜,然后在中餐馆里边她写了两行Good signs和Bad signs,就是什么好的元素证明这个餐馆是正宗好吃的。她的Good signs里边就写,门口会有一个巨大的鱼缸,里边全是活鱼,这就是一个好的标志,这家餐馆一定很正宗;还有很吵闹,这家餐馆可能会正宗一点;还有说洗手间的,有一个巨大的肥皂,就证明可能会正宗一点。她写的坏的signs,就是坏的标志,恰巧就是关于饺子。她说如果你点了一份饺子,用的是推车推上来的,那一定很不正宗。如果那个饺子旁边除了放辣椒油、醋,还放了橄榄油,就是很不正宗的。就是饺子可能是不是鉴定一个海外中餐馆标准的一个元素?
 
曹: 那显然不是,就算在中国的饺子也不是,中国有一半的人是不怎么吃饺子的,而且还有那种吃饺子蘸番茄酱的人,那你能说他那个就很不中餐吗?人家是在中国,是一些我们自己发明的吃法。中国人发明的吃法很多种,而且每个地方都不一样,比如说广东人就几乎不太吃饺子。虽然说“袁记云饺”是广东企业,我们不太吃饺子,但我们做饺子的企业可以做到全国都是,这也是一种商业上的逻辑了。其实说白了,中国每个地方的差距太大了,所以你在中国去界定中餐就很难。比如说我印象很深的是,我在爱尔兰的时候,我读书的时候有一个河南的同学,他就说起他家的西瓜酱,然后他就说起用西瓜酱卷饼吃,还带了一点,他说就这一点,很快就会吃完,说分我一点尝一尝,然后我吃了一下,感觉就这么回事。后来他还跟我说,他发现了都柏林有一家非常好吃的一个中餐,然后就是那种Chinese buffet,七欧元去吃到饱的那种玩意,他说很好吃,之后我尝了一下,我就心里想这什么东西。
 
后来我就发现我跟他们完全不在一个频道上面,就是我跟北方的同学吃东西完全不在一个频道上面,他们觉得好吃,我通通觉得不好吃。他们觉得ok的中餐,我是觉得完全是不能吃,对我来说的话就是不行。差异太大了,然后甚至我跟上海的同学,有些东西还是有差异,我跟上海同学算是比较能吃到一块的,比起北方的是比较能吃到一块,但是仍然是有很大的差距的。
我们对一个东西,尤其在海外,一个东西好吃不好吃,会有个“怎么样去接近你原来的这个口味”的想法。我蛮会做的,所以我做的时候很多人会过来吃,然后他们有些人就觉得他第一次吃到什么什么东西,但是因为他生活的区域跟我不一样,所以我们没有哪个中国人会说,晚上我们一起去吃个中国菜,疯了,你肯定要说的具体一点,你到底是要吃饺子还是要吃饼,还是要吃火锅,你得说清楚,你说中国菜什么玩意?
 
李: 对,你刚才提中餐的自助餐,我对这个印象也是不太好。包括我在英国的时候,有一些中餐自助餐是这么标明的,里边还会有寿司,它其实就是融合很多所谓亚洲菜。
 
曹: 这是一个东方主义的想象。
 
林: 很多餐厅还是中国人开的,他自己就是接受东方主义的印象,然后去做出改变。
 
曹: 这个是为了他们(外国人)的接受。其实中餐那些福建人,说白了又是福建人,就是因为我认识的这些Chinese buffet的老板大部分都是福建人,福建人他自己也在想象,因为福建菜也不是那个样子的。

 

天津饭🍚背后的殖民

李: 那我们就从刚才一些引入,然后开始正式谈。我们今天这次的主题,主题就是“假中国菜”,其实搜到了维基百科,百科上的比较准确的一个名词就是“海外中国菜”。讲到假中国菜或者海外中国菜,刚才浩东也带入了,比如说那些美剧里边出现的外卖盒,里面会有那种炒面,我在英国也吃过的那种所谓的炒面,除了炒面,我们还能想象到一些什么?比如说浩东跟我说的时候会聊到天津饭,是一个比较标准的,大家典型能想到的。我想到就是左宗棠鸡,然后还有什么杂碎,杂碎其实是一个比较典型的一个菜品,李鸿章杂碎。
  
曹: 宇都宫饺子。
  
李: 宇都宫饺子,对我们可以简单聊一下。比如说天津饭,浩东印象当中的天津饭,你查一些资料当中有什么出入吗?
  
林: 天津饭。对我其实想到天津饭,我想到是日本的动漫人物,动漫人物天津饭。我没有吃过天津饭,但就觉得他这个名字命名听起来就又有点不太正宗,可能是我的刻板印象。
  
李: 我大致懂,因为我之后查到了一些菜名的命名习惯,其实有一些,比如说惠灵顿鱼,然后比如说还有以人名命名的凯撒沙拉,然后还有一些确实是正宗的,本地的菜也会以地名来命名,但是天津饭这个我其实不是很了解他跟天津的具体什么联系是什么。可能一会请曹老师给我们讲一下,我查到的是在天津的菜系天津菜里边有一个锅塌里脊,它其实也是现在我们印象当中天津饭的做法,那种有点像是锅塌一样的蟹蛋饭,他只不过是用了另外一个材料。还有一些说法是最开始日本的厨师做天津饭的时候,用的蟹肉就是天津的梭子蟹,所以得名天津饭,我觉得可能传说和传说之间都有出入,不知道曹老师这边有没有什么正解。
 
曹: 我也不能说我就是唯一的正解,因为我也是听说的,就是我在日本的时候我听一个在日本多年的一个中餐厨师跟我说天津饭,就是根据横滨那边一家日本餐厅的说法,他那个厨师当时是在天津的日军俱乐部,日军军官俱乐部做饭的。在天津日军军官俱乐部的做饭的厨师在当地发明了一种蛋包饭,然后就叫天津饭。
 
林:所以那厨师是日本人吗?
 
曹:那个厨师是日本人,是日本人做给日本人吃。当时日军在中国活动的时候,他一般来讲厨师都会找日本人,因为他怕下毒。我们有时候会讲慰安妇这些事情,相对来讲,本地人做慰安妇或者日军里面做厨师的中国人是较少的,因为日本人他信不过他们,他觉得朝鲜的会安全一点,中国人的话就不知道你会干什么,所以他是觉得不安全的。所以当时这个厨师就是日本厨师,日本厨师在天津做给日本军官吃的一个东西就变成了天津饭。
 
李: 明白,我查到的历史也是有点相似的,他说的是在二战之后,解放了一批日本战俘,然后他因为运力不足,因为海运运力不足,就得成批回国,所以有一些人可能就耽搁了,或者就是时间待的时间长一点,在天津这个地方就开始乱炒一些海鲜的边角料,然后做了一个天津饭出来。除了查到我们这些印象刻板印象当中的海外中国菜,还有一些,比如说是牛肉炒西兰花,也是一个比较著名的,在海外比较流行的所谓的中国菜。但在开始讲座之前,我跟曹老师说,其实西兰花传入国内的历史其实很短暂,这明显是海外的研发出来的中国菜。
 
曹: 但这个其实跟正宗没有关系,它也是正宗的的。就比如说天津饭这个事吧,天津饭其实是个正宗的日本菜,是做给日本人吃的,他只是碰巧在在天津做出来而已。
 

幸运签饼🥠背后的移民——从日式点心到中式点心

 

李: 还蛮有意思的。刚才进到这个场地的时候,我会发一个我跟浩东做的幸运签饼,一个小的手工。我们搜了一些幸运签饼的那些格言,那些好运的一些话,然后折成了一个签饼的样子,这是被誉为比较典型的一个中式点心,就是你在每个海外中餐馆可能吃完饭之后都会有这么一个点心。是一个鸡蛋,然后淀粉做的,你掰开之后里边会有一些什么孔子的格言。
 
曹: 正好我家有很多这个。
 
李: 等一下跟大家聊一下,不知道大家都拿到了吗?其实是一个日本人发明,算是一个日本典型菜式,后来为什么就变成了一个中式的,中餐的代表?可以一会听曹老师聊一下,给大家简单说一下幸运签饼的历史。
 
李: 对对对,这样的。
 
曹: 可以拆给大家看一下,是这样子的,然后里面有一个纸条,吃的时候掰一下,这个纸条就出来了。
 
李: 对,然后会有一些格言,甚至什么本杰明-富兰克林的格言也有。
 
曹: 有一个纸条,这个壳子是可以吃的,我觉得不太好吃,我一般都不吃,我就拿个纸条,然后它这上面会有一行数字。
 
李: 这个数字是彩票的数字?
 
曹: 对,你会买彩票的话就什么Lucky a /Power a。
 
李: 我看曹老师您写论文,论文里边也会提到签饼其实是一个日式点心,日本人的做出来的,他后来为什么成为中国点心、餐后点心的一个代表?我觉得传播的过程也是挺有意思,我查到的资料是说,当时有两拨人,一个旧金山的代表团,一个是洛杉矶的代表团,都说幸运签饼是他们做的。其中一个洛杉矶的代表团是说,他们有一个香港人开的中餐馆连锁中餐企业,说他们CEO非常体恤穷人,总会在他们的大楼旁边发幸运签饼,发好运的格言还是什么,久而久之就会有一个点心出现。另一波代表团就说其实,他们企业里面有一个日本人,然后日本人就很喜欢做点心做小吃,发给同事,这是他们日式的表示友好跟客气的方式。两个代表团就争上了法院,后来法院在日本员工家里边发现了做饼干的炉子,这就成了唯一的证据了,后来就证明幸运签饼的发明者是一个日本人,我不知道为什么后来就成为了一个中餐的餐后点心。
 
曹: 这个事情有个很明确的历史,有一个人写了一本书叫做《Fortune cookie chronicle》,叫做《幸运签饼编年史》,是Jennifer Lee写的。Jennifer Lee是金门县人,也是福建人了,金门县是属于福建的,金门县是福建不可分割的一部分。然后她在美国长大,做过纽约时报的记者,也写过一本完整的书,你们可以查一下《Fortune cookie chronicle》。她这本书是写到最早是日本人开的,日本早在京都就有这样的店,就是人在拜佛之后,在门口有一些类似中国庙会的各种小吃摊,然后有一种小吃摊,就是把签饼放到饼里面的,所以他们在美国也开了这个东西。那么开的这个叫做“勉强堂”,就是学习堂的意思吧,开了一个这样的企业,他是第一个在美国做幸运签饼的。那这是在二战以前,二战的时候美国不是把所有日本人都关起来了嘛,在被关停的时候,他们几乎只有一个月的时间离开他们原来住的地方,所以日本人就赶紧抛售他手上这些企业,因为他马上就要进集中营了,他这边把自己的房子和企业赶紧要抛出去。而日本人住的跟中国人很近,比如说我们在旧金山或者在洛杉矶都会发现日本人就挨着中国人住的,因为亚洲人其实说白了,亚洲人在美国人眼里就一回事,你们就这帮人,反正就住这个区域的,然后中国人就接手了这些东西。因为日本人全部被关进集中营,所以中国人就接手了勉强堂-学习堂幸运签饼的业务,然后就开始向餐厅各个中餐馆来分发他的签饼,所以签饼就这样跟中国的餐馆结合起来了。这是在美国发生的一件事情,就是由于美国人把日本人全关起来了,所以导致中国人接手了这个生意,说白了就是这么回事。
 
李: 刚才曹老师提到那一点就是中国人,日本人都住的很近。
 
曹:其实韩国人也住在一块。
 
李:在您论文的第三个时期,就是差不多20世纪下半季的时候,我看到有一些说法是日本人在美国一些或者是其他国家,日本人开始做中餐馆,因为中餐馆更受欢迎一点,因为经济原因,所以很多中餐馆是日本人开的。
 


海外中餐面临的问题(一)

 

曹: 中餐有个很严重的问题,就是中餐一直在依赖一些来自中国的一些物产。物产到了60年代的时候,由于跟大陆的联系完全中断,所以这些物产实在是供应不上。中餐有时候需要一些特别的东西,比如说辽参,那你要是跟大陆的交易完全断了的时候,你只能通过日本的那种海参勉强来弥补,而日本正好能够很大程度上弥补,所以我看当时这个海外中餐馆一开始开起来,很多菜要从日本进就是这个原因。比如说辽参这个东西,日本也有产的,就是那种干的海参,你就只能这么去替代。然后蚝豉也是这样,蚝豉是广东的特产,但如果你广东的海岸线都被封锁,就很难有了。不过还有香港,香港也有这个东西,但是有一些北方的物产真的就只能从日本进了。还有发菜这个东西真的就是没地方可以进的,因为很多广东菜要用到发菜的,我不知道你们吃过没有头发菜,西北产的头发菜。发菜、蚝豉、猪手这些东西都是属于广东过年的必备的一些菜,那时候北美的一些中餐馆,其实很难搞到这些东西,这些原材料是很难搞到的,所以当时日本接手的一个很大原因是因为这个,没有办法跟大陆保持一个联系。

 

 

海外中餐发展的时间线(3个时期)

 

李: 明白,那好,那我们不如就开始顺一下这个时间线,您在19年写的那篇《海外华人的饮食文化自我认同》里面也比较重点的分成了三个时期,一个时期是16世纪明代中期到鸦片战争以前的,就是海外华人的饮食的一个习惯,第一个时期。然后第二个时期是1842年鸦片战争之后,一直到1949年中华人民共和国成立这期间的一个海外中国菜的演变。然后一直到第三个时期,20世纪下半叶至今是第三个演变。然后第一个演变其实有一个词比较能概括,就是娘惹菜,我刚才说的16世纪明代中期到鸦片战争以前,如果我没有理解错的话,其实当时我国的人民带着“天朝上国子民的傲慢”,然后就说中式的菜才叫熟食,那其他国家都叫生食,然后就开始教授当地,就是环南中国海地区的当地人民开始做烹饪,然后开始做一些中国菜。娘惹菜具体是什么样子,然后它的口味或者是它的食材是什么样子?

 

曹: 娘惹菜。我刚才分的这三个阶段,其实我不太用时间来分,我一般用它的这个对象来分,第一个时间就是你刚刚说的到鸦片战争以前的这个时间,基本上这个是叫“做给中国人吃的菜”,这些是中国商人,当时中国人出去的时候,他的地位是很高的,他要么商人,要么使节,他绝对不会出去给人打工的,所以他做的菜就是“你们做给我吃”,就是这个态度,就是我教你们怎么做中国菜,我要吃中国菜,所以你们做给我吃,这个就属于是说主人对仆人的一个态度。那是一开始的一个特点,一开始的时候其实也是一个有殖民主义的国家,当时梁启超也写过这个东西叫《钟国殖民传》《殖民伟人传》,就是怎么开始自己的殖民历程的。那时作为一个北方的帝国,它本身天然就带有一种殖民主义的倾向的,北方国家都有,温带大帝国都有这种倾向,所以中国人一开始的时候是站在这个位置上开始,中国人起点是这样的,它起点就是“你要来伺候我”,你要用你本地的食物来招待我,然后我用你本地的食物来发挥一些我自己的想象,中国人利用胡椒利用豆蔻都发挥了很多想象,这都是做给中国人吃。但是鸦片战争之后,就从一个殖民主的地位变成一个被殖民的地位,地位完全掉下来,所以这个阶段的菜叫“做给外国人吃”。要出去打工,要去做厨子做给别人吃东西了,不再是主子,现在是变成伺候人的这个人,所以他的菜要考虑外国人的口味了。这时候我们大量的李鸿章杂碎这样的菜就开始出现了,他是完全是为了给你吃,符合你的口味,你喜欢是什么,他就做什么样的,所以他这个审美取向完全是偏向于西方人的这个取向,因为他们给钱,然后中国人干活就这么个意思。

 

那么接下来最后一个阶段就是到了60年代以后的时候,是新的阶段,是“建立自我认同”的阶段。这些海外中餐发现,他们开始要建立一种自我的认同,就是他们作为海外华人本身要建立起一个认同,因为以前他们的认同是一直是挂在中华上面的,他觉得自己是不可分割的,但是事实上又已经分割了,不仅分割,而且没有联系。从49年到78年之间,海外华人社区跟祖籍地是很难取得一个正常的联系的,这个联系是断掉的,他跟他的祖籍地是没有联系的,他最多可能跟台湾有一点联系,但他又不是从台湾来的,他是从广东来的,他是从福建来的,他跟台湾联系干什么,有点奇怪是不是?他联系不到他自己的祖籍地,所以很多饮食的这个东西没有办法跟进。
 
 
所以他必须要创造一种自我的认同,他在危机当中创造了一种新的认同出来。我就觉得说是,这种隔绝的关系,由于海外华人社区被动的隔离,而产生了一种“创造自我认同”的需要。他们开始建立一种强大的自我认同,就“我们就是这个样子”,我们吃娘惹菜,我们就是这个样子。还有美国的美式中餐也开始建立自己的认同,比如说我们刚刚看到幸运签饼这个传统,现在饭后,发一个幸运签饼已经变成美式中餐的一个传统了,就是已经构成一种文化了,这种文化现在已经构成了他们认识自我的一部分。美式中餐就是这个样子的,比如说我们刚才说到那个印了一个宝塔的餐盒,也已经变成了一种符号了,它已经变成了一种中餐的符号了。然后我们跑去说你不正宗,那他会说,“那我们也是正宗的中餐,”这也没有问题的,你也变了多少,对不对?你这边自从20世纪以来,经历了3、4次大型的革命,你的菜都已经面目全非了,你有什么资格说我面目全非,是吧?就是大家都在同一个旧的中华的废墟上面不断地重建,你重建成这个样子,我重建成宝塔,你又重建了一个新的宝塔,比如说我们看大报恩寺琉璃塔就一个很有意思的现象,它被炸毁了,就好像文明的根基一样,他在一片的大的革命和浪潮当中变成了一堆瓦砾,你在瓦砾里面捡几块瓦,然后你搭成这个砖塔,你那旁边那个人搭成那个庙,反正各搭各的。我觉得大家都继承了中华,所以我觉得没有什么正宗可言就是。
 
林:所以现在“正宗”是一个比较以偏概全的概念。
 
李: 是一个伪命题。
 
 
曹: 对,你不能说你住在这里,你还住在这片故土之上,你就对中华有绝对的主宰 的权利,我觉得这是不对的,因为中华的概念一直都在漂移的。
 
 

中餐转型与符号漂移

 

李: 对,包括刚才曹老师提到那个中餐馆被迫转型,其实转型之前有一个挺有意思的点就是杂碎。包括中餐馆卖杂碎的这个场景,我看到有幅画是爱德华·霍珀的一幅画,那幅画就叫杂碎,他画的是两个美国女人在吃杂碎,但是他那个画面外是一个霓虹灯,霓虹灯上写的就是“Chop Suey”,是粤语过来的,直接翻译成了一个英文的,所以在那个转型之前,中餐馆是那个样子,就好像一个咖啡馆,里边装潢特别精致极简,然后外边有一个霓虹灯。转型之后就说了,我们不能有霓虹灯,我们可能需要什么灯笼,或者说我们需要更多中国元素来彰显我们的一个中华特色,我觉得这是一个挺有意思的一个转变,就开始想象我们以前的传统是什么样子,然后抛弃掉一些我改变的东西。
 
曹: 但其实那种灯笼,就是我们现在看那种圆灯笼,那个是从日本流传过来的造型,那个是在1949年以后才被发明出来的东西,那是一个新玩意。中国传统的灯笼其实是八角宫灯那个形状的,那个才是中国传统的灯笼,但现在海外的中餐馆有几个会挂呢?但还是有啦,也有一些还挂着,只不过这个东西总是在不断的漂移,这种意象和它的符号都是存在的不断漂移的情况。
 

 

关于东南亚的饮食

 

李: 我们刚才从娘惹菜,然后开始慢速说到了美式中餐,然后之后的新中餐。其实娘惹菜比较值得说的一点就是娘惹到底是什么意思?刚才之前做这个活动之前,浩东跟我说娘惹其实就是女性和土生的华人,在环中国南海地区有那么一个称谓,叫娘惹,然后土生华人中妈妈做的菜有点偏私房有点偏家庭的料理。
 
曹: 娘惹就是妈妈的意思。
 
李: 然后比如说有那个叻沙,然后在曹老师的讲座里面就会提它,其实本意是“非常多”。
 
曹: 它还是泰米尔词,它又跟印度有一点交集。因为海外到东南亚的这些华人,他免不了肯定要跟印度人发生关系,因为印度人也是一个很强大的力量在东南亚,我们在东南亚看文化的话就很明显,东南亚有本土的土著文化,还有来自印度的文化,来自中华的文化,还有来自西方殖民者的文化,所以东南亚是个非常有意思的地方,它还有伊斯兰文化,来自阿拉伯的伊斯兰文化。
 

 

海外中餐的甜与辣

 

李: 我在列大纲的时候有一个问题,就是比如说我们提到左宗堂鸡,比如说还有甜橙鸡,也是一个海外中国菜的一个典型代表,它里边最重要的一个味觉元素是甜,左宗堂鸡是甜辣。然后我就在想甜这个元素是什么时候进入到我们中国菜的这个认知范畴里边的?但是我知道糖这个东西,比如说也是印度引进的,比如盛唐时期,中国的使节从印度传进来了炼制红糖的办法,然后再到明朝。

 

曹: 明代砂糖叫泉州砂糖,以泉州为出名的。

 

李: 然后后来会做砂糖,我知道糖的历史是比较早的。

 

曹: 季羡林写过。季羡林写过一本糖史,里面讲的很清楚,尤其是泉州砂糖的记忆。就唐代的时候,泉州砂糖特别有名。宋代就更厉害了,泉州砂糖还是个出口商品,还出口到印度去的。

 

李: 好像就是红糖炼制很厉害,白砂糖做的很厉害,然后印度也来学这个炼制方法。所以甜辣是不是就是一个复合的烹饪方法,是在海外出名,因为可能要照顾到本地不是那么能吃辣,就是海外的本地人,所以才有了甜辣这么交融的方法。

 

曹: 其实辣也是,因为原来中餐是没有什么辣味的。辣的普及,那都是50年代以后的事情了,之前中餐是不太有辣味的。比如说我特别印象深刻的就是,当时我跟庄祖宜聊的时候,她在台北吃到的那些川菜,属于那种老派川菜,都不是用很多辣椒的。而且我小时候也吃过老派川菜,就是真的是不太辣,就感觉是很丰腴的感觉,不是很辣,很肥厚的感觉。辣都是革命以后才兴起的一个味道,其实说白了,在49年以前真的辣是一个很少能够上席面的东西,你自己放点就算了,一般席面上不会来这个东西。所以甜/辣就是本身这两个味道,我觉得可能都是为了要符合外国人的想象,对东方的想象。

 

李: 明白。

 

曹: 去为了符合他们的想象,因为这时候中餐,中国人的地位已经变成了给他们做饭吃的人。那你肯定要揣摩他们是怎么想的,他们希望得到什么。就比如说,有时候我写东西的时候,虽然说我自己自诩为是自由的写作,但其实我一点都不自由,我天天要想着我写的东西,观众会怎么想,然后读者会怎么看,读者会喜不喜欢,然后我想着我这个话能不能够说到他心里面去?我怎么样说他心里面去,就我要写他想说的东西。所以我得揣摩你,我得揣摩别人,我要揣摩编辑怎么想的,审稿的人会怎么想,然后审核的人会怎么想,我得揣摩你们的意思。

 

李: 您刚才说的做给本地人吃的这么一个逻辑,我觉得是恰恰是前面提到的第二个阶段。

 

曹: 对,中餐厨师就是要不断的揣摩他。

 


排华法案期间的海外中餐(为什么排华法案期间中餐馆反而越开越多)

 

李: 1868年之后,然后这十年间,从广东,包括香港那边到旧金山,然后淘金的,经商的人很多,您说的那个恰巧是一八八几年之后排华法案出来之后,有那个庞大的排华情绪,然后排华情绪体现在传播上面,就是说中国人中餐馆,当时叫黄旗馆,每个中餐馆门口就会挂一个黄旗,就是觉得好像黄色就是中华的某种象征。

 

曹: 挂的是黄龙旗。大清的国旗。

 

李: 当时好像说因为在中国本地,你不可能用黄色或者黄龙,但是在海外就没有。

 

曹: 不是这样的,就是挂国旗。挂国旗的意思是我们也是受保护的,就我们也是受到大清的保护的,大清当时虽然说费拉,但也没有费拉到那个程度的。石泉惨案的时候,美国人要赔钱的,公使会过去交涉的,你乱搞人,那我们国家的侨民,大清是要保护侨民的。

 

李: 我看到说有一些登陆旧金山的,也不完全是劳工,也有一些就是自费。

 

曹: 其实是劳工,石泉惨案里面受害也都是劳工,当时中美发生过一个很大的交涉事件叫石泉惨案,叫Rock springs massacre,专门针对华人的屠杀,死了十几个人,还是三十几我忘了这具体数目,一时记不起来了。但反正当时是严正交涉要赔钱的,要赔礼道歉,要赔钱,然后一定要彻查这个事情。清朝的这个总理衙门对保护侨民,还有当时古巴华侨,也是叫古巴华侨调查案,当时说受到虐待,损害了大清的国格,清朝是很在乎这个事情的,区别于印尼排华。

 

李: 其实想说排华情绪,当时就说中餐馆都是吃老鼠肉什么的,用一些食材很奇怪,然后才会有了说那我们就多用一些本地的食材的说法。

 

曹: 也不是这个原因。他其实一直都是用本地食材的,因为他从中国进口实在是因为太远了,你跨太平洋的航线当时也要三个月的,你什么食材经得起那样送,就除非是干货,你弄点黄花菜还可以,木耳还可以,但是你是大量的肉类的还是要本地化的。所以其实我们看到,在20世纪以前一个很重要的特点就是中餐到了海外都一定要本地化,他一定要用本地的食材,你本地有菜场,能买到什么东西,就尽量用什么东西。但是其实还有一点的话,就是华人对加州的农业是有非常重大的贡献的,加州农业的起家就是由华人开始。我今年要出一本书,也是关于排华以后华人的在加州的这些行为,就是包括种地,包括开餐馆的这些事。

 

李: 而且去的那些广东人,我看有说也教授本地人捕鱼的技巧。

 

曹: 对,然后他那边还有像养蚝也是从那时候开始的,其实那个地方就是等于广东人在那边新造了一个小广东、新广东、New cantongnia 。

 

李: 其实说排华情绪,也有很多言论。当时,在排华的时候,有个说法是说美国人吃的牛肉算是一种生肉气概或者男子气概,但是说亚洲吃水稻为主,吃米饭是一种苦力主义,就是苦工,然后当时有一个辱华的词汇叫“工蚁”,你们来的都是劳工,都是“工蚁”。

 

曹:有这么一种说法。

 

李: 但有一个逻辑,很有意思。偏偏是有这样的说法/排华情绪,中餐馆反而越来越多,为什么会这样?

 

曹: 中餐馆是这样子,在加州是受到迫害的,加州的排华情绪是很热的,当时是加州好像大概有5、6万吧华人,排华的情绪是很高涨,但是排华的情绪仅限于太平洋沿岸的几个州,就是俄勒冈州、加州、华盛顿州,你往内陆去就不太有的,因为内陆他都没见过几个华人,你就算是5万人,你扔到美国的汪洋大海里面,那也没几个人。所以加州排华以后一个很重要的特点就是流散,华人开始跑,他觉得加州你对我不好,我就去其他州,他就往中西部走,那中西部走一个小城市可能就只有一户华人他还排什么,他只是好奇,完全不排,说你一户人你能怎么样,他完全就没有这个情绪的了。最典型说一个例子哈,比如说非洲人在广州,前几年老是说非洲人在广州很多,那你就在广州,你也就8万人,你就算全部在广州,你这8万人全在广州,好,广州人对你不太好,那你就跑到内陆去,内陆他也一年到头他也看不到几个,那你怎么会排呢?你最多好奇,这个人哪来的,挺有意思的,怎么这么黑?大概就是这样子,就是好奇了,华人当时就是这样子的。华人为什么中餐馆越开越多,就这个原因,就是他发现加州都不好混,那我去那个内布拉斯加州,你全州就我两个华人,我就开个中餐馆也挺挣钱的,你也挺好奇的,就过来看看我。

 

李: 中餐馆,唐人街反而成了一种新的好奇。

 

曹: 对,因为就排华以后,反而导致华工的流散,流散以后反而就给中餐传播开来了。

 

李: 还有一个逻辑是,比如说大家现在看一些亚裔的美国电影会有一些开洗衣店的亚裔和开中餐馆的亚裔,当时有一个分析是说,虽然排华情绪是有的,但是一些极少数的男权社会的白人男性就是白男,他是对做饭和洗衣服这两件事,非常看不上的,反而促成了中餐流传?

 

曹: 洗衣店最早在加州开始的,洗衣店这个事,我们经常会说华人要么就洗衣店要么中餐馆。当时早期去加州的时候,都是淘金客,他又不会洗衣服,又不会做饭,都是男人,那么华人就干点这些事吧。因为其实当时发现华人在淘金这个事情上面,能获利的非常少,还不如去洗个衣服,做点饭赚的比淘金挣的还多。而且淘金很危险,华工如果在这个荒郊野外,很容易受到白人矿工的袭击的,但如果你是在城市里面,就会好些。为什么华人最后都聚集到城市里面,像华人一开始也不是没去过乡村的,主要是在乡村受到袭击太多了,其实你想美国那歹徒心里面也有数的,你在大城市里面光天化日这么去打华人,那你肯定会被抓的,美国也是有警察的,你就不能这样子抢人东西的,所以为什么华人最后都集中在城市里面的行业,也是因为这个,在城市里它比较安全,你下到乡以后真的会有人抢东西。当然,那些人也不只是抢华人,你看当年美国西部那个状态,你是个人他都抢了。肯定是城市里面安全一点,他选择这些行当洗衣店、餐馆都是因为这个问题。

 

李: 包括我看一些电影,比如说斯派克·李,他会描述一个布朗克区吧,然后他描绘一些韩国人开的水果店什么的也是被一些什么混混,打砸抢什么的都有。

 

曹:西方社会,尤其是美国社会零元购的问题,就现在零元购也还是很多。零元购这个东西真的是一个死结来的,没办法的,如果你想要一个相对比较自由的社会的话,你就无法避免,就等于是一个硬币的两面,就无法阻止的零元购。你看19世纪就已经有了,就是当时看到很多这个华人的这种遭抢的这种事件,其实就典型的零元购。那些爱尔兰人,当然可能有点歧视爱尔兰人的成分了,当年爱尔兰矿工也经常零元购的,这个零元购也不是黑人的专利,以前那些爱尔兰人也这么干的。

 

李: 那我们从刚才排华情绪或者排华法案之后,来到了1956年,移民法颁布,相当于是彻底废除了华人移居美国的一些障碍或者限制,然后1956年之后我们会谈到的一些,比如说左宗棠鸡,比如说李鸿章杂碎,开始改良之后出现,这也是某种转变,从一个没有那么知名的状态,来到了一些有一些菜品出来。我们刚才一直谈到的左宗棠鸡,到底它是什么?我之前看了一个纪录片叫做寻味左宗棠鸡。

  

 

左宗棠鸡背后的历史

 

曹:是Jennifer Lee拍的
 
李:对,是她拍的,然后有一个特别有意思的,就是她先去采访一些美国人就问左宗棠是谁?然后美国人的想象,说他是一个蒙古将军,身上穿着玉甲,还有什么金甲,他是一个什么什么将军,反正还挺有意思,就是两重的刻板印象。左宗棠他们不知道是谁,然后海外中餐他们也不知道历史,然后他们又想象了一个将军的形象。我不知道在曹老师那边是不是有一个唯一解,关于左宗棠鸡的历史,我查到是彭长贵。
 
曹: 就彭长贵,我也认同她这个调查结果,这就是Jennifer Lee的调查结果。她就找到了彭长贵,应该从他开始之后,美国基本上所有餐厅都开始搞这个。
李: 他是一个蒋介石的御用的厨子,然后等于说撤回台湾之后,海军上校去拜访台湾,然后他做了一份原创的料理。
 
曹: 它不是原创的菜,在中国传统菜谱里面是有的,是叫甜橙鸡。
 
李: 明白,然后他尝完之后觉得很好吃,后来在纽约开了餐馆,一直到一九五几年,他回去之前一直是在做这个左宗棠鸡。
 
曹: 对,现在彭源在台湾还有的,也有那个菜,是初始版本。
李: 说到改良,说到初始版本,最开始左宗棠鸡是有鸡皮的。后来是?我也不知道为什么是去掉鸡皮这么一个操作。
 
曹: 去掉鸡皮主要是你在美国当地买到的这些鸡块,它本来就是去掉鸡皮的,基本上屠宰场出来就已经给你分割好了,这就是当地的中餐馆直接在当地进货了,他懒得自己去切鸡了。都是这样子的,没有人会自己切鸡的,除非你是很高档的餐馆专做给几个人吃,那我专门弄只鸡回来慢慢切了给你弄,然后栓脚链,给你搞一下午,穿一下午,要不然他就直接买现成穿好。
 
 

对正宗论的批判

 

李: 说个有点抽象的一个问题,就是我们最开始聊的关于正宗的问题。因为我看纪录片里面会带到一个讨论,之后还有一个王大厨,另一个中餐馆的大厨,他说是我原创的左宗棠鸡。

 

曹: 我觉得讨论正宗都没有意义。这种Authentic的讨论都没有什么意义,你到底是谁创造的,是什么样的,每一个人心里面都有一杆秤。我们现在是个后现代主义的时代,你再企图用那种精英化的视角,说是彭长贵招待了第七舰队司令的那个鸡,才是正宗的鸡,其他的没招待过第七舰队司令的都不是正宗的,这个话说起来特别精英主义,你不觉得吗?所以我们现在在一个后现代时代,在后现代时代,一个很大的特点就是去中心化,你什么叫中心化?我觉得定义正宗就是中心化的一个话语的特征。

 

李: 我认同。

 

曹: 所以我自诩为一个后现代主义的人类学者,我是比较反感这什么正宗这种定义方式,没有意思。

 

李: 正宗是一种文化霸权。你不正宗,你在我的认知里边,你就被边缘化了。

 

曹: 那什么叫正宗,就是葛兰西说的嘛,葛兰西说谁是正宗?统治阶级的就是正宗的。凭什么你的是正宗的,我们老百姓吃的就不正宗,我就爱蘸番茄酱怎么着了?

 

李: 我查到一个挺有意思的,说是王大厨之后说他改良了一个左宗棠鸡,好像更注重了甜和炸制的过程,它取名叫曾国藩鸡。然后他介绍给美国的媒体说,我这个鸡是改良过之后,我准备叫他曾国藩鸡,因为曾国藩是左宗棠的老师什么的,但是在那个转译的过程当中出现了一个误差,还挺有意思,那个左宗棠鸡叫General Tso's chicken然后他说那个曾国藩机叫做General Tsang’s Chicken,但是可能广播的记者韦氏拼音他不太熟悉,左跟曾他就又搞混了,然后他还是叫回了那个General Tso's chicken就还是左宗棠鸡,等于说他想传播也没传播出去。之后,我们也谈到了没有所谓的正宗跟原创,这么一说,就是改良过之后的才出现了一个甜辣风味的,然后原料是白醋、干辣椒之类的,鸡腿肉要加蛋清,然后炸成块之类的,这么一个传统的做法。

 

曹: 我觉得美国每一家中餐馆都有自己的配方,每一家都不一样的,还有些人在上面摆盘的时候加点西兰花。

 

李: 对,我看到还有什么加蜂蜜的。

 

曹: 反正你喜欢怎么样,我就怎么样来。

 

李: 而且我刚才在说的那个杂碎,其实就是用一些肉的碎末,然后跟一些蔬菜然后炒在一起,要不加点生抽或者什么。我甚至看到说,在牙买加什么的餐馆里边,他们也会卖杂碎,他们的名字叫做American chop Suey,美国杂碎是完全是一个美国菜。

 

曹: 有一次我去到有地方玩,斯里兰卡,我去斯里兰卡旅行的时候,那边有一个印度人做的Chinese food,然后他做的就是这种杂碎,他就说这是美国菜,他做的还挺好吃的。

 

李: 好吃就行

 

曹: 对,我自己定义,反正它好吃就行了。

 

李: 而且在纪录片里边,他其实也说这么一点,我做的不是中国菜,也不是什么斯里兰卡菜,那不恰巧就是美国菜。

 

曹: 对,他做的是美国菜。我觉得左宗棠鸡已经完全变成了一道美国菜了,非常地道的美国菜,还在美国。他为美国人而设,在美国落地生根,然后被美国人接受,我觉得就是一道美国菜,这没有问题的。然后美国本身也是一个很多文化,多元文化涵化的过程,这一部分的中华在里头,所以谁也没有办法去定义中华,中华在每一个中华的后代身上,你每个中华后代都有权定义中华,我就有权定义,蘸番茄酱的饺子,就是这样。

 

李: 过不去了。

 

曹: 我们每个人都是好像是余英时那句名言,“我在哪里哪里便是中国”,我们就要有这样的文化自信,我就定义了中华。

 

 

海外中国菜的命名方式(西餐的命名习惯)

 

李: 我们刚才从聊菜,然后聊一些左宗棠鸡的这些菜系之类的。其实浩东在做这个活动的时候,他有一个主题就叫做命名,然后我也想跟曹老师聊一聊关于命名上面的一些内容。其实我认为的命名,就是我理解的naming,比如说我们如何翻译我们的传统的中国菜到英文,这是一个转译的过程,也是重新命名的过程,我觉得命名也许指的是这个。所以我查了一些相关的,比如说中国菜转译成英文的一些案例,或者是一些资料,它提到一些方法,就比如说它有两个方法来翻译中国菜的菜名到英文菜谱上,一个叫写实型翻译就相当于我用音译加上它的释义,再加直译的一个过程;还有是纯艺术翻译,就是音译加释义加意象来翻译一个菜名,然后左宗棠鸡它其实就是一个很美式的翻译,General也不是左宗棠。
 
曹: 中国人很少把人名放到菜里面去。比如说你说李鸿章杂碎,如果中国人去理解这个菜品的话,觉得他在骂李鸿章,对不对,李鸿章是个杂碎,是这个意思。所以中国人不会接受,这种命名的方式就具体人名命名的方式,中国人的菜一般是地名命名的方式。
 
李: 地点命名。
 
曹: 地点命名的方式,就是比如说,自贡冷吃兔,或者是广东肠粉或者广东拉肠,这样子,中国人比较习惯的方式是地点命名。但这些地名在英语的母语的使用者里面几乎没有意义,就是一堆听不懂的,也不知道什么任何含义的音节,但那对中国人是有意义的。当你提到自贡的话,你会想到那种又咸又辣的菜,盐帮菜马上就是意向会出来的,就地名对你是我们中国人是有用的,对他没有用,但是他就加上人名,比如说general Tsang’s Chicken它的重点就在General上面,而不是在Tsang上面,因为Tsang对他没有意义,重点是个将军的菜,他马上就会感觉到我吃了这个东西,就好像就能像一个蒙古将军一样雄壮有力,然后骑马射杀欧洲费拉,这个意向就出来了。其实左宗棠本人根本不是这么一个造型,所以想象很重要,你怎么想象的很重要。
 
李: 在转译的过程当中最难转译的就是比如说佛跳墙,比如说蚂蚁上树这些菜名,更注重意思或者意向表达的一些菜名,因为我看了一些比如说西餐是一个相对理性的餐饮。
 
曹: 也不一定,比如说威林顿牛肉,你怎么理解?对他也是个人名,然后还有拿破仑苏,你怎么说,欧洲人还有凯撒萨拉也是。欧洲人很喜欢用人名来命名,就是西方文化传统哈,我们现在他说想象我们东方,我们也想象他西方,我们在想象这个西方的时候,西方有个习惯,就是用人名去命名菜,就还有比如说本尼迪克蛋,也是它的一个传统,它会用人名去命名一些东西。拿破仑酥跟拿破仑是没有关系的,拿破仑酥原来的名字叫那波利人的酥,那不勒斯酥,是这样,如果是中文翻译的话,当时抄菜单的时候,不知道谁抄错了,怎么抄成了拿破仑酥就是,后来在美国和加拿大全部都叫拿破仑酥,就这么莫名其妙的一个错误。还有那个威灵顿牛肉,本来在那个法菜有一道菜,法国宫廷菜有一道叫酥皮牛肉的,但是因为欧洲人,英国人觉得他不爱国,因为他是法国菜,就把它变成一个爱国将军的名字,打败了法国的将军的酥,威灵顿牛肉就这么来了,所以就是有一些这样的想象在里头,这个需要一个文化的根基。比如说佛跳墙也是个需要文化根基的东西,这怎么说,就是需要一个涵化的过程,你直接这么移植过去是没有意义的,因为对方这个文化完全无法理解你你所说的是什么?
 
李: 我查到有一个是说其实在海外的中餐馆里边,它那个菜单上其实是有Kung Pao,就是宫保的英文的音译过去的就是Kung Pao,但是没有鱼香,这个直接音译过去一般都说,比如说Garlic like或者是最多是Fish flavor这种翻译,它没有鱼香音译过去,我最开始不太知道,因为我觉得宫保跟鱼香在我看来是一个国内很知名的菜系。
 
曹: 美餐里面经常有个芙蓉蛋,这个也是直接音译的。所以我觉得在这里,文化涵化的意思就是你不要试图去翻译,这一切是由消费者和厨师共同创造的,大家会自然会归到一个点上来,但是我觉得音译是个很好的起点。比如说我一直觉得就是不要叫什么Dumpling,就直接写饺子就行了,你怎么叫你就直接怎么写就好了,Dumpling在欧洲文化里面是另外一个东西,因为意大利是有Dumpling,这是另外东西,里面包的是奶酪,不是你这个东西。你不要用他那个,用自己语言的,有自信一点,你在哪里便是中华,我想怎么叫,你就得听我。
 
李: 现在那个Dragon也就也有龙Long。
 
曹: 对,我觉得这样是比较好的,就是你直接用你的发音去翻译就好了。比如说像美国里面有很多这样的例子,比如说文化涵化的例子,还有一个Bok-choy(白菜),还有这样美餐里面一般说中国这种炒菜的Wok,他就直接就是Wok,Bok-choy就直接就写Bok-choy,就直接这样拼写是可以的,我觉得这完全没有问题。他们也不是理解不了他慢慢就会能接受的,他有个涵化的过程。我觉得大家都可以这么想,就是没必要去想象说对方不能理解,他能不能理解关你什么事,他自然会想到一条和解之道的,你操心你自己就好了。其实日本这方面挺好的,日本就从来没有不管他自己那个拉面叫什么Noodle,他直接就叫Ramen。饺子也是,他就直接Gyoza,也是挺好的,对,但其实日本的饺子已经形成了自己的风格了。
 
李: 就是比如说我们说到Dandan noodles担担面,其实也是一个直译过去的,但是好像提到担担面,有点像是日式中华料理的感觉,没有完全中餐的意思。
 
曹: 好几个,日本人这一点是特别明显的,我们说到海外中餐的话有好几个区域,就比如说美国是比较涵化了的区域。欧洲是不太涵化的,欧洲我觉得只能说是叫做中国人希望融入,就渴望融入的一个结果,但是这个对方接不接受是另外一回事,欧洲文化本身还是很这个怎么说,本身的文化还是很强韧的,就是比较拒绝融入的这一套东西,中国是企图融入的这么一个意思。然后,像日本的话,日本的中餐很多程度上是由日本人自己去做的,尤其像饺子,还有天津饭,还有麻婆豆腐,很多都已经成为他们日本人自己做的东西了。他已经是融入了本地的,就融合进去,一定要融合,这种都不能叫融入叫融合了,那它已经接纳成为它的一部分,所以它的情况是不一样的。然后东南亚又是另外一种情况,所以我就说的那四种情况,就是涵化的情况、边缘化的情况、融入的情况、融合的情况,这4种情况就是海外中餐出现的四个演化的逻辑。在日本那个逻辑是很有意思的,我一直很喜欢他们那种魔改的方式,让我觉得耳目一新,麻婆豆腐可以放草莓的,这么猛的,这很有创造力,我觉得很好玩。这个宇都宫饺子也是很好玩的,这个创造,刚才我们不说了嘛,宇都宫师团,华北的14师团,师团长是土肥原贤二,号称中国通的人。

 

中餐的趋势

 

李:OK. 那我觉得我们从从最开始的引入,然后到后来聊娘惹菜,然后聊新中餐,新的美式中餐就是美国菜,我觉得我们最后一个段落也许可以稍微再抽象一点。比如说我前两天看那个扶霞,她的那个新书,听了一个节目,然后开始聊这本书,她其实谈到了一个趋向,这个趋向就是海外中国菜开始有了三个“化”,三个化是火锅化、典型化和面条化,然后她就抱以了比较悲哀的看法,认为火锅化是一个特别糟糕的发展。就是现在很多海外中国餐馆就去厨师化了,变成一个完全中央厨房的,没有厨师你就也没有菜系,你就自己烹饪,火锅化在国内之前有过这么个讨论,就是好像现在开餐饮非常方便,你就火锅也不需要雇佣厨师,把酱料调好就行。然后她认为海外中国菜的这个趋势,是消极的,我不知道曹雨老师如何看待她总结的这三个变化,这三个趋势。

 

曹: 那个书我也很想买,现在下单还没有到,既然你已经说了她总结出来的三个化。火锅化是趋势的话,我觉得几乎也是无可避免的,大概就是这样,而且我觉得中国现在还有一个那种预制菜这些东西的,我觉得这可能也会传播的越来越广。这要放在一个大的逻辑下去理解,就是怎么说人的“异化”,还有一个消费主义的时代,我们对劳动,我们对厨房劳动的理解,这是一个很大的题目。我会在新书里面讲这个话题,人的劳动是怎么被异化的,人对厨房的理解是怎么样发生改变?这个问题太大了,我们现在只能说火锅化这个趋势当然是一个不太好的趋势。如果我自己说的话,我可能会尽量的想要延缓,尽量不要那么快的沦入一个境地,因为这代表着一个人的生活的沦陷,但是有些时候说起来挺悲哀的是这种进程有时候是无可阻挡,它必然会走向一个趋势。我觉得自从人类自从走出东非大草原以来,基本上生活是每况愈下的,我不是说什么时候开始,我是从东非大草原开始,这个时间开的有点早,农耕劳动使我们长期的要低头的在一个地方的工作,没有办法自由的奔跑;进入工业时代以后,我们有了时间的观念,我们的一天24小时被时钟拴着走;在做农夫的时代,我们是一个日出而作,日落而息的一些人;在工业时代,我们被时钟拴着跑;那么到后工业时代以后,我们开始的996我们开始007,更悲惨了。所以我觉得就是悲惨,这是无可阻挡的趋势,就我们会过得越来越差,我们在无可救药地滑落,我们远离我们的食物,远离我们的精神世界,远离我们那些享受,回想一下我们的祖先在东非大草原上裸奔的时候,那是何等的快乐!那是真正的快乐,当他去钓一条鱼的时候,就真的可以吃到那条鱼。现在你在干什么,当你在卷发表,卷什么工作业绩的时候,你都在干些啥。

 

李: 我觉得今天我们讨论海外中国菜很有意义一点就是,包括老师写的那篇论文里边说,中国是一个泛食主义,就是比如说得了第一名叫做问鼎,比如说很多时候,我们会以食物来借代我们的一些意义和一些观念,包括到了您说这个比较消极的现象。我想到一个比较好玩的一个段落,就是在李安的那个《饮食男女》里边,那个朗熊做了一大桌的菜,给比如说从美国来的家人们做一大桌的菜,他说开动的那一刻,在中国的一些亲戚朋友就会先去夹菜吃,从美国来的一些亲戚朋友会先拿雕花,就是胡萝卜或者什么菜盘里边的花去啃。我觉得啃的动作就是既搞笑,但是又有一点点悲哀的色彩在里边,就好像一个完全不了解这个多维文化的人,他是如何来看待这个菜的?好像也没法跟他沟通,就是你不能先吃那个龙,或者你不能先吃那个凤凰那个雕花,你要先怎么样。

 

曹: 我觉得这是一个做饭的问题,我认为所有端上桌的东西都是能吃的,不应该存在说端上桌的东西里面有不能吃的东西,这样是不对的,我觉得在桌上放条雕花的龙那是不对的。你所有的端上来是能吃的,是一个起码的餐桌的一个规矩吧,就是回归食物的本真,既然你这就是个给人吃饭的场合,你首先就要满足他吃饭的这个需求,这是一个最基本的东西。你雕花这种东西的话,那你摆条玉的上来不好吗?放在房间里面当陈设那不好看吗?现在玉雕无论如何也好看一点,反正他都不能吃,你何必呢?这个其实我们已经基本上都破除掉了,你发现没有,现在都没有了,基本上不再干这种无聊的事情了。

 

李: 但是好像火锅店会放一些什么假人在上面放肉片什么?

 

曹: 对我看到的比较少,可能这种餐厅我也不太去。

 

李: 浩东还有什么问题吗?

 

林:没有。

 

曹: Ok那我还有一个点心化和面条化,我还没有讲。

 

李: 对,您继续!

 

曹: 点心化、面条化的话,是个专业化的问题,其实是个好事,就是餐馆应该越来越专业。原来海外中餐馆你会发现菜单巨长,就是他就想满足你一次过满足你对中华的所有想象,他又做面又做饭,然后又做点心,又做茶饮,什么都来,那就这样子就意味着很难做好,你厨房里面摆那么多东西,有时候你找都不知道怎么找,离谱。就是我觉得专业化是件好事,一个餐馆,它能够把几道菜做好就已经很不容易了。所以我觉得大部分的餐馆可能都往这个方向走,它就是一两个拳头产品,比如说以前我们看川菜能够做个几十种菜,可能以后的川菜馆我就是专做水煮鱼的,现在其实已经是这样了。

 

林: 费大厨炒肉。

 

曹: 他就专做一两样菜,做得好就不错了,事实也是这样子,你一个厨房,你弄一大堆拉闸横成一堆,就好像那个袁枚在《随园诗话》里面就这样写的,说名厨极尽一天的心力,能够做出两道不错的菜就挺不容易了,你就指望他搞那么多拉闸,横成一堆又不好吃,何必是吧?我觉得专业化是有趋向,就典型化面条化其实都是专业化的趋向的,倒是一件好事。

 

李: 我的问题差不多结束了,浩东没有,我们看看现场有没有?

 

曹: 现场有没有什么问题?

 

 

食物隐喻(权力转移)与泛食主义倾向

 

现场观众1: 刚才聊到了很多语言命名上的和食物的关系。然后也提到了很多次,它是跟政治相关的东西,不管是国内国外。比如说刚才从是否正宗这个词上,其实就有引申到这一层含义,然后现在我发现到有一些新闻稿里头会用,比如说中央厨房这样的一个词来做这样的隐喻,就是说我们的信息都被类似于这样的一个信息茧房处理过以后,就像预制菜一样的被发送出去,被一个中央性的控制,包括民间比如说很多播客里头也会提到。我前一阵听了一个很有意思的,说奥斯卡就是一堆白左在一起包饺子,就是诸如此类的对食物的隐喻。包括就是镇至策略上,我感觉也很喜欢用跟饮食相关的东西来进行一些政策发明,比如说另起炉灶,曾经的一些政策,他们会把这种厨房饮食相关的东西都变成镇至化的一种代码吧。因为我对这种语言跟食物,在政治社会领域的东西比较关心,所以我想听您比如说在这方面有什么见解,包括有没有相关的书籍或者是东西推荐?
 
曹: 你刚刚说到什么吃大锅饭,或者就另起炉灶,这属于一种泛食主义倾向。中国语言里面有一种倾向,是把所有的东西都跟食物联系起来,或者跟吃这个行为联系起来。比如说我们会说喝西北风\吃官司,或者说饭桶,说这个大锅饭之类的说法,这都属于一种泛食主义倾向,这个就是一个文化特性来的。这个在西方是不会有的,因为西方有一种禁食主义倾向,食欲是七宗罪里面的一宗,在基督教文化里面,所以西方文化是有一个禁食主义的倾向在这里。这个是对“食”这个概念的应用的不同,政治化的趋向也是从泛食式主义出发,因为要泛用食物的概念。然后我现在主要转向的研究的方向,是关于劳动异化和厨房劳动之间的联系,就可能更走向回人类学的一个本体论的一些东西,在讨论食物这方面。我现在马上就要有一本新书出来,也是关于这个东西,厨房发酵和人的权力的转移,大概是这个方面。因为其实中央厨房也好,或者说它隐喻的背后,其实有一个隐隐的东西,叫做“权力转移”的一个事情,谁掌握我们吃什么?或者谁去言说我们吃什么?我们吃什么这个东西是由谁提供或什么,比如说我们去点个外卖或者点个奶茶,我们会觉得非常方便,但在方便的同时,我们丧失了一个很大的主体性,我们是被这些数据或者被这些东西去引导的,甚至是我可以说一句就是被消费主义引导。消费主义在饮食上面有很明显的体现,当饮食又是一个特别接近本真的东西,它对天然对消费主义有一种抵抗的意味,就是你又不能说消费主义完全左右饮食文化,因为食品它有一个属性是它首先得能吃。你再给他叠任何的商品的含义也好,如果我们说到这个消费主义的话,我们经常会说它叠加的含义已经超过它本身的意义了,比如说我们买一个包包,它其实装东西的功能是最次要的。但是食物不是这样子,食物它始终是要能吃的,所以食物有一种天然的反消费主义的一个本质在这里,就你无法叠加意向叠加到它不能吃,那不能吃就不能叫食物了,大概就是这样。
 
现场观众1: 我补一句,就是您现在写的是跟臭有关的,然后您之前写的跟辣有关的,然后包括也有很多写就是糖作为历史的这种饮食人类学。比如说,中国饮食里有很多苦的东西,这个是什么时候开始的,就比如说广东就很喜欢吃凉瓜这一类的东西,然后也还赋予它很多文化含义,然后在不同地方,也有很多跟苦有关的食物,它是怎么开始传播起来的?
 
曹: 我觉得这是一个想象。中医认为苦的东西有一个寒凉的符号意味在里面。而这种寒凉的意味就有一种药用的价值,这也是一个对身体的想象。我们现在消费的所有东西都是围绕的一堆符号,就符号化消费,中国人吃食物一直都是有符号化的。你看金瓶梅就特别明显,它每一个食物都是有符号意义的,他不是随便再吃一个东西,他每一杯酒都是有符号含义在里头的,我今天西门庆说我不爱喝那一坛子酒,我爱喝这一坛子他都有意思的,他那个都有符号的意思在里头。所以这个苦瓜也是这样子的,比如说广东人的对苦瓜的这种推崇,其实他对于一个寒凉的需求,或者说对凉茶这种需求,其实有一个这样的含义在里头。所有中餐的食物大部分都是建立在一个想象上,虽然说中国人不爱用人名去命名一个菜,比如说北京有个东西就是臭豆腐,有时候也叫御青方,它就开始跟一个人联系起来了,跟慈禧太后联系起来,它也有一个想象在里头,当你消费这个东西的时候,你就开始有一些符号化的一些联想。还是回到刚才要说的问题,食物还是一个反符号的东西,因为它还是要能吃,始终还是跑不掉能吃的属性,你再御青方也好,它也是必须是能吃的,它不能脱离东西而存在。
 
现场观众1: 好,谢谢。

 

民族主义背景下的中餐

 

现场观众2:  能听见吗?不好意思。就没有拜读您的著作,我现在要提的疑问是仅限于您今天的讲座。我有这样的一个印象,就是从您的谈话当中没有特别听出,您所指的这些现象是有哪些是独属华人的体验的?有哪些是更具有共性的?我就是只是想简单提这么一个问题,就是您在史学研究当中,您是怎么防范民族主义方法论的,或者就是关于这方面有怎么样的一种处理的方式,在面对主题和史料的分析时。
 
曹: 就是在食物的分析里面体现的民族主义方法论?
 
现场观众2: 对,在整个饮食领域时,作为一个现象或者华人在美国这个体验有怎么样的一种反民族主义的考虑。如果有的话,如果您觉得我说的不准确,你就自动忽略,不好意思。
 
曹: Ok,我听到了,其实食物是很有民族属性的,就是中餐,是很明显,就是它有一个民族属性在这里。包括在美国人或者说美国当地人,他认识中餐的时候,他也是把它作为一个异民族的一种文化现象来理解的,所以这个民族主义的这个意涵始终是存在的。我印象很深的就是当时有一个华人的牧师叫王清福,当他看到华人中餐馆里面卖的是老鼠肉的时候,他是有非常强烈的反驳的,所以这个就是我觉得可以说是一个民族主义的体现。还有包括早期的时候华人中餐馆在门口竖起黄龙旗,这也是民族主义的体现,他一直在体现这个东西,它体现自己跟中华这种强联系,他希望加强这种东西,至少他希望能够展现一个强联系的东西。正如我在写三个阶段的时候,尤其写到最后一个阶段,就是建立自我认同的那个阶段的时候,就是海外华人发现这种强联系,已经没有办法实现,所以他们开始选择一种,尽量的体现自我本体性的一个东西。就是我把这个东西叫做自我本体意识的觉醒,就从60年代开始,就是美国的华人社区也好,还有在东南亚的华人社区也好,都经历这个过程,他们开始觉醒一个自我意识,我们是华人,但是我们并不是一定的要带有这种民族主义的东西,虽然都叫做Chinese,但是这个含义是不一样。这个东西如果用英文去理解和用中文理解,真的会产生很大的一个偏差,因为在英文里面全部都叫做Chinese,对不对,但是我们中国人会说华人,我们会说中华、中国。中国是指一个政治实体的中国,中华是一个更大的文化概念的中华,这个意思是不一样的。如果你翻译成英文全部写成Chinese的话,就会有一些让人混淆的地方,大概是这样的意思。我觉得最核心的就是60年代以后海外华人社区的自我意识的觉醒,Self identity的建构,基于中华,但又不完全是中国的,我希望能够回答到你的问题。
现场观众2: 我可能刚才没有表述特别清楚,我给你举个例子,比如说如果分析加州地域概念,我觉得是否有一个可以允许做比较的一种在地性,在场的因素。因为你刚才提到,比如说华人对加州农业的影响。经过有限的观察,比如说像意大利人或者瑞士人在做葡萄耕种,所以如果就是以加州作为一个分析单位了,那可能是否有一些完全交叉的情况是不仅限于华人这个群体本身,我本来的问题就是,您阐述的关于于华人的这些现象是否有一些跟其他族群的共性,是可以值得去观察的,就这个也直接影响我们刚才说的方法论上的民族主义,因为如果就光以华人作为一种分析单位了,就很容易,但是没有文本是单独可以万能揭示所有现象。所以我也不是在骂您是个民族主义者,但我的意思是说怎么在这种研究当中也体现具有一定开放性的视角,或者可以容纳比较的余地,但是如果是专属华人经验的,那当然是该怎么详细去考察就怎么样,没有任何问题。我一直就在说有这种共性的层面,如果你在你的历史研究当中没有观察到,那我也觉得也是挺感兴趣的,因为在美国这么一个移民社会,我自己第一印象是可能他对待不同族类的方法,就是美国本土人,虽然美国也没有本地人,一种本地人的一个主体性是针对所有其他的族类,无论是华人还是日本人,韩国人什么的,刚才其实也有提到,或者意大利人,它这方面的张力,您是怎么在研究当中展现的?
 
曹: 特别明显的,我觉得犹太人的视角是比较明显的。就犹太人看中餐,犹太人对中餐的态度,我觉得特别有意思,你可以去看一下罗朗的Michael d.rosenblum,他在一席有一个演讲就是讲他怎么样认识中餐。我觉得他的角度就很有意思,因为他作为一个犹太小男孩,当他第一次吃到萝卜糕的时候,他的那种感觉和他的认知。因为我是一个华人,所以我没有办法站在犹太人的角度上去理解这个事,但是他作为犹太人,他的角度很有意思,我建议你去看一下他的说法。犹太人跟中餐的这种交融是美国社会一个很有意思的现象,因为我们都知道犹太人会在圣诞节的时候去吃中餐,这真的已经变成了一种社会惯习了。
 

 

 

食雕、以及人类学研究视角的合法性

 

现场观众3: 曹雨老师好!然后就特意有备而来。然后你刚刚说到食雕那种,我其实认识您是因为看Te杂志的槟榔那篇,然后它特别有意思的是,这本书里边同一期后边就是一个关于食雕的,我特别好奇您对这篇文章的看法。
   
曹: 食雕的这个事。
现场观众3: 饮食的形状,这是唐菡和周霄鹏的,我特别好奇,你对这个的看法。
   
曹: 这其实属于一个过去的时代,中国贵族的一种审美吧。就其实如果我们翻翻以前的这些老菜谱,基本上都有这个东西,尤其70年代以前的菜谱,我自己收集了很多菜谱。就是70年代以前的一些老菜谱都是有的,基本上都会有一些这样的东西。但我觉得这个东西其实是很没有必要存在的,属于是那种一种陈腐陋习的一部分,这东西又不能吃,又不好吃,你摆在那里,你吃不得的东西还不如搞个玉雕往那一放。我对食雕就是这个态度了,就是没什么必要存在的一个东西。放在桌面上,放在你面前的东西都是能吃的而且好吃的。
   
现场观众3: 然后我还想问我还想说一下,以人名为命名的就是在我印象中还是不少的,近代的话就是有很多,就比如说马连良鸭子,西德顺的,这个毛氏红烧肉,当然它是一个很符号化的东西,但是我们往前倒,比如说像东坡肉,像这个宋草鱼羹,像这个麻婆豆它可能不是一个很具体的人,东坡肉是一个很具体的人,他还会有这个东西,这种命名,我觉得还是有的,现在饭馆其实更多的是一种姓氏来命名,比如说傅记酱肉。
  
曹: 是有的,对刚刚可能说漏了这一点,就是其实这个是个普遍文化现象,就是用人名来命名,其实是个蛮普遍的,就我觉得人类很多行为是共有的,就是不是说西方文化才有,东方文化会专门怎么样,中华文化也是有这种,你这样一说我就想起那个龙抄手,也是一个人名命名的例子,但中国人一般不会扔个全名上,显然左宗棠鸡General Tso's chicken,他也没扔全名,他只要能够造成认知的辨识度。
现场观众3: 以姓氏来命名的饭馆,尤其是小饭馆,就是比如说章记李记还挺多的,比如说鸦儿李记就是地名加人名,它没有说我是做什么的。还有一个就是更核心的问题,就是您在槟榔这本书里边说,人类学视角与方法,旁观的视角是反思的武器,关怀和共情是一切基础。我就有个问题,比如说您作为华人,然后怎么在以一个旁观的视角来观察华人饮食,因为本身上身份是相同,或者说近似的,怎么在这个视角,再独立出这个群体再观察。
  
曹:我觉得这个是很难的,其实是做不到的。最好是他者的视角。比如说像罗朗那个视角就很好。
  
现场观众3: 这又有一个问题,比如说我去观察一个印度菜,我不是印度人,没有深刻的领会到他们的文化背景,或者是宗教这些东西,我怎么去客观研究,我觉得很多事是不能通过这种调研来去解决的。这两方面我觉得形成一种悖论,那究竟什么样的视角以及研究什么样的一个客体,才能让这两个东西平衡?
  
曹: 其实我自己调查的经验就是你最好是能够站在一个他者的角度。你最好不是这个文化中的一份子,如果你是文化中的一份子的话,你会对太多的现象习以为常,而不会提出问题,如果你做调查的话,这是一个很危险的事。所以最好是有个他者的角度。但是这个他者的角度又是很难获得的,因为你要作为他者,你又得很熟悉这个东西。比如说我们刚才说的印度饮食文化,你必须非常了解印度饮食文化,了解到就是你虽然是他者,但是你可能比大部分的本地人懂得还多。比如说像扶霞或者罗朗这样的人,他可能比大部分中国人对中餐的了解还要深入,他还要理解得更多,但他又是有一个他者的视角,所以这需要一个大量学习的过程,而这学习过程又是很痛苦的,很有很少的人能够花几十年,这样的时间和精力去专门研究。比如说扶霞就是嘛,她研究中餐,研究了至少有二三十年的时间了,她才能达到那样的深度,她又有一个“他者”的角度,这种角度是很好的。这个事情很难获得的,另外你刚刚说到一个客观,我觉得客观几乎是不可能达成的任务,就没有人会客观的,我们当时看马林诺夫斯基哈,他去解释库拉圈什么的,但是他客观了吗,你最后再看他的日记,是吧,他一点都不客观,这个是很难做到的事情。就是我自己在研究的时候,经常在吃到一些东西的时候,我在骂的什么鬼东西是吧,吃得我那么辛苦,也会是这样子的。这个是很难能够达成的,但是我与其说否认这点,我还不如说干脆的就坦然承认了吧,“是的,我做不到,我有很强的主观性”,我吃到这些东西的时候我是会骂娘的,那我就认了呗。
  
现场观众3: 那我还有一个问题,您调查的转向是怎么从吃辣到槟榔,然后一直到食臭,这是怎么转向的,包括到现在这里?
  
曹: 我现在做的一些事情都是在挑战难度,我想给自己上难度。如果你们有留意我的公众号,你会发现前段时间我搞了一个菠萝的田野调查,菠萝调查。菠萝的研究路径跟辣椒就很像,我就安排我的学生去做,我不自己做,我觉得这个东西对我来讲已经没有什么太大的挑战的难度了,我想上难度。那么槟榔为什么去研究,是因为槟榔的难度比辣椒要大很多,槟榔的历史资料的记载是很丰富的,就是他从这个先秦时代,不是先秦,至少也是从西汉的时候就有记载,一直到今天,所以他的记载的资料要比辣椒要多个1500年的资料在这里头,这个就是一个难度,你要分析的资料就更多了,你要能够探讨的范围就更广了,所以槟榔是比辣椒难度要高的。我现在做的发酵食品,难度会更高,因为我想走到形而上角度上去,就是我想通过形而上的东西来分析一下为什么发酵和文化的联系如此紧密,发酵到底体现了一种什么样的文化态度。所以我想再挖得深一点,我是在给自己上难度,太同样的事情,我就不想做了,我会找一个能够比较有难度的事情,再让自己再上一个台阶,看能不能再走一点,再往前再迈一步。
  
现场观众3: 还有一个问题,就比如说我要研究一个跟我的文化非常远的,就比如说我研究一个法餐,我怎么获得这个研究他的这种资格,就是这种合法性,或者说这种合理性是怎么获得的?尤其是这种文化比较远的。
 
曹: 首先就是第一个就是你要能够讲很好的法语,语言是进入他文化的第一步,所以我看到人类学家真正要去做的,比如说我不知道你看过那个《天真的人类学家》这本书没有,Nigel Barley的那本,他到了西非以后第一件事就是先学当地的语言,人类学基本上都需要这个技巧的,就是你有一个向导也好,你有一个翻译也好,你还是要去学这个语言的,你不学这个语言没有办法进入他们理解的事情,理解的的这个世界,所以才要学语言。学完语言之后,就要学烹饪,当年扶霞到中国是怎么做田野调查的?她是不是先去四川的烹饪学校学了几年烹饪,还有现在北师大的老师叫什么名字来着?也是美国的人类学家,他也是先学的烹饪,切了几个月的菜去做了几个月的案板,这都是要做的。所以你先找个法国的烹饪学校,先学几个月,然后完了到厨房里面去再工作几个月,然后在法国的每一个地方再去吃几个月,可能几个月都不够,你可能需要几年,这时候你就有资格了。所以当地人也觉得你的研究是有价值的时候,那这时候你就获得了这个资格。
 
现场观众3: 我问完了,谢谢!
 
曹: 还蛮辛苦的哈!
 

 

 

如何面对日常饮食中的权力关系(分工)

 

现场观众4: 你好,曹雨老师,我想请问一下,就是你刚才有说,你觉得现在人生活过得越来越差了,然后好像点外卖很方便,但好像吃了也没那么好了,但就如果反过来想一想,好像不光是吃饭的人,吃的东西没什么个性,好像做饭的人,也没有那个权利去定义说我今天给你做什么?做这个东西有我做饭的人的什么特色,这种真正的特色好像是很少的,就好像大家都可能把自己框在某一个菜系或者某一个流行的菜式上。我不知道你在说这种权力关系的时候,有没有你觉得比较良性的,做饭的人和吃饭的人之间互动的良性关系,就什么样的权力关系好像是比较理想的,然后怎么样这两边的人都能够发挥一点个性,就现在想起来感觉是很难的。

 

曹: 对,但是你躺平就可以做到,我始终是觉得这一点,躺平是最好的出路。就是我们现在比如说一个厨师,他上班的一个过程吧,他的劳动是被异化的,他的劳动是资本家的一个工具,就是完全是工具化的,商品化的,他要把它贩卖出去。而在厨房里面又是高度分工的,就是做案板的人甚至不会去炒菜,就是高度分工的一个东西,所以这就是一个纯粹的一个被异化的劳动。当马克思说劳动的异化的时候,我一直就想着做饭就是一个最好的代表,被变成一种叫厨师的职业,然后被变成给别人做饭,其实给自己做饭是很有乐趣的,我想吃什么,然后我今天做点什么,其实这是一件蛮有乐趣的事情。我自己每天是给自己做饭的人,我一般不会不太会出去吃饭,我每天就是想吃什么,我自己就做点什么,那这样子的话,我觉得我做饭是一个很好的调剂。就是我写书的时候写累了,我去做点饭,然后做完了以后我就吃,吃完了以后我就继续做我自己该做的事情。我觉得做饭吃,甚至它对我来讲都已经不是一件痛苦的事情,它是一种纯粹意义上的马克思所说的,造就了人的劳动,我觉得这个劳动造就了我,它使我变得充实而有意义,做饭这件事情使我变得充实而有意义。因为我做饭是提供给自己的,我是为自己做的,我是为我的家人做的,我觉得这个事情是很有意义的事情。所以我觉得关键你要是要想摆脱那种痛苦,或者说摆脱这种被异化的关系或者被异化的劳动的话,那么最好的方法就是为自己做事情,不要为别人做事情。

 

现场观众4: 但这种情况下,好像就只能吃饭的人就是做饭的人。

 

曹雨: 对,做给自己。

 

现场观众4: 如果做饭的人和吃饭的人是两个人,好像听你这么说,她就只能逃跑,从自己是做饭的人这个厨师的角色当中逃跑,然后好像很难去积极的建构点什么东西。

 

曹雨: 所以我就觉得,没有什么办法的,就比如说我们说到家务劳动这个事情,家务劳动也有可能被异化的。比如说一个母亲,她长期的被迫在家里面给全家人做饭,她可能根本不喜欢做饭这件事情,当然这种情况不至于那么极端。她毕竟是在为自己关心的人做东西,她为自己的子女做饭,也是有一点安慰在里头的,不至于像厨师那么完全的这种商品化的方式,还好一点,这种状况是好一点的。但是我觉得,最好的状况还是为自己,你不需要去为别人去做这些东西,你可以把自己的生活降低到最简单的程度。就比如说实话,我挣得也不多,我觉得我活得还挺能自圆其说的,大概就是因为这样,虽然我挣的不多,但是我消费得少,这样也就够了。尽量在自己的层面上自洽,自洽可能是一个比较好的说法。

 

现场观众4: 就这样讲的话,好像那个权力关系就是很难去干点啥的?很难去干预。

 

曹雨: 你要干预别人吗?你是想说我要去干预别人的,或者说我要影响别人吗?

 

现场观众4: 因为我不是很确定,就是你刚才讲的那种权力关系到底指的是什么?你说你最近在研究的话题。

 

曹雨: 权力关系,我讲的是劳动的异化这种关系。劳动的异化,马克思主义中的。

 

现场观众4: 所以在这里,引向的结论就是它就是这样的,它就是很难去干点啥去改变。

 

曹雨: 对, 我觉得是无法改变的,这种社会分工的现实是无法改变。就我们个人的力量,在整个社会的这种社会大分工的体系底下,浮萍撼大树根本一点用都没有。所以与其你去做那种无用功,还不如救自己,救人救不了,你救自己还不行吗?那我自己不参与了,我放弃了,我自己就过我自己的日子,那也是一种方式,就你就自己好了,反正你改变不了别人。我的想法大概就是这样子,因为我觉得有时候你去想拯救别人,别人需要你的拯救吗?不要想那么多嘛。还有另外一个,就是有时候,让人间变成地狱的事情,恰恰是人们想把它变成天堂,所以这也是很危险的。

 

现场观众4: 好的,谢谢。

 

曹雨: 可能很丧。

 

如何给外星人介绍中餐

 
现场观众5: 曹老师您好!今天你讲了太多的话,我来提最后一个问题,我的问题就回到中餐,因为我自己也是在国外生活过,我是在日本生活过,当我被日本的朋友问到什么是中餐的时候,其实我回答不上来这个问题。我能想到什么是川菜,我能想到什么是鲁菜,然后比如说粤菜,但是你要跟我说什么是中华料理,我是真的很难回答到这个问题。然后刚才也听到您讲的海外华人做的中餐,但其实在这里面我是发现了有很多,不是打破了我们传统意义的中餐,比如说像日本的宫爆虾球,它是可以加番茄酱的。然后比如说在日本的中餐馆里面会有一个叫做虾蛋黄酱的一道菜,叫エビマヨ,它其实是加了芥末酱跟蛋黄酱的。就是拿这个叫什么精英主义的来说,这都应该被大打80大板,这都不是中餐。但是,在我们今天的语境里面,它是中餐,它是在国外的中餐店里面卖的中餐。我的问题是,如果您要跟外星人解释,他甚至不知道人类的文明,解释这一盘菜是中餐,那什么让它成为中餐?您会怎么去解构这个?
 
曹雨: 就是这个事情吧,其实有一个人已经尝试过这个事情,就是张光直。大家知道张光直老先生,他是一个考古学家,他专门研究实物也写了一些书,关于这方面的,他写了一个叫《中国食文化的五个特征》。他首先说的是中国食文化的特征,其实这些特征全是一堆概念的集合,中国的食文化,它不是一个具体的东西。这也是我每次上课第一节课要讲的内容,就中国食文化从来都不是一个具体的东西,比如说我们可以说到日本的食文化里面很重要一点就是白米饭。日本,它是一个吃饭的民族,它把饭视为是一种神圣的食物,它已经有神性在里面了,它代表了日本这个民族,所以有一个美国的日本裔的人类学家叫大贯美惠子,她写了一本书,叫做《作为自我的稻米》,她就讲这个日本的食文化跟稻米的相关性。但是中国是没有的,中国一半的人吃米一半的人吃麦子,谁知道哪一半是吃什么,所以很难用一个具体的东西去指代中国人的食物的特征,中国食物特征是一系列的符号。一个最重要的符号的特征,中国人的饮食是由中国大地上生产的这一系列动植物的总和来表示的,本土的这些物产,这是一个很重要的点。另外一个就是中国人的特征是由饭菜的这个逻辑来体现的,中国人吃饭和吃菜这两个东西是要搭配起来的,比如说我们吃一个面条上面也有盖码,你不同的盖码就体现的是菜的成分,而主食的那个东西就是面条,这就是一个饭菜搭配的原则,这个原则体现了中餐。哪怕是在美国人的这些中餐馆里面,也有一个饭菜搭配的原则,这个在西餐里面是没有的。还有一个,中国人对食物的一系列的食疗和身体关系的信仰,相信这些食物吃下去以后会改变我的身体,从哪方面改变呢,会使我热气上火,寒凉湿热,这些都是改变的方向,这个就是一系列身体上的关系、关联。然后还有一个是中国人对食物的崇拜,就比如说问鼎也好,还有对于食的各种礼智的规定也好,体现了一种对食物的宗教性的崇拜,这也是体现了中国食文化的一个特征。所以,张光直先生就用这五个特征来总结了中国食物,中国食物是什么?中国食物就是这些特征的符号化的总和,它不是一个具体的东西,它是一堆符号的总和。所以中餐是无法被摧毁的,因为它是一群符号,它不是一个任何具象,这是张光直先生说的,不是我说的,就是我一直在引张光直的话,刚才我说的这些。
 
现场观众5: 对,您刚才说的已经在很大程度上解答了我的困惑,谢谢。
 
曹雨:对,因为我觉得张光直说的这些能够解答嘛,所以当你自己再去绞尽脑汁的时候,你把张光直老先生的那些著作读一读就明白了。
 

中餐西做与西餐中做

 

现场观众5: 不好意思,我想再问一个问题,更小一点的问题,就是您怎么看待现在中餐西做的这样一个做法,不是说在海外移民的脉络里的中餐西做,而是在很多所谓创意菜、融合菜。你觉得现在融合菜的出现,是它有它的历史脉络吗?它是我们现代的时代生活的一个文化现象吗?
  
曹: 这不是现代的,是一直以来的。从唐朝开始,中国人就已经在做这个中餐西做或者西餐中做这个事情。唐朝时候,当时也引用了一种叫做“毕罗”( 饆饠)的东西,就从中亚引进的一种食物,有一种叫蟹饆饠的一个菜,在烧尾宴里面有。如果你去研究菜谱的话,会发现古代就已经有大量的从中亚的波斯的,中东的还有从印度的,从东南亚引进的各种各样的菜。中国人从来就没有停止过向外学习,或者向外扩散的脚步,你一方面可以融合别国的做法,一方面可以把自己做法输出出去,这个在中餐的历史里面,绝对不是一个今天才有的事。融合、世界文明,从开始一直到今天的所有的主题,都是这个东西,一直在融合,中国人一直在融合新的东西。比如说西兰花这个东西,西兰花来中国才40年,它已经进入了多少中国菜?还有羊角豆,就是秋葵啦,也在不断的被应用到新的菜品里面去,都在不断地发生,所以融合是不停地发生,从来没有中断过,它不是现在才有的现象。
现场观众5: 谢谢老师。
李: 今天的这次对谈就这样,非常感谢曹雨老师,还有各位来这次讲座,非常感谢,非常开心,那今天的对谈就先这样辛苦曹雨老师!
  
曹: 非常高兴跟大家见面,谢谢!非常高兴跟大家见面,能有机会跟大家交流一下!
  
李: 希望下次能线下见面。
  
曹: 对,我把书写完能够去北京晃晃。
  
李: 好好好。那我们今天就先这样。
  
曹: 好,拜拜!